Online Debate on Protestantism’s “Justification by Faith.”
The following screen shots document a very unique debate on Protestantism’s doctrine of Justification by Faith. Though painfully lengthy, I think it’s important that it’s documented.
Transcript: https://paulspassingthoughts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/t-josiah-richardson.pdf
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
And some people wonder why so many people refer to Reformed theology and Calvinism as a cult.
These guys ran through the logical fallacies like robot zombies; no wonder they are not able to present a clear and simple gospel. They don’t know one. (But they appeal to Sproul? What? He is such a blasphemer!)
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The only thing that shocks me in this exchange is Rusty used the NKJV rather than ESV.
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Looked up your thing about the “wretched man that i am ho can deliver me from this body of death” being Greek for someone persevering under affliction. My my you were right https://www.studylight.org/commentary/romans/7-24.html So its about a man a tyrant chains to a corpse so he has to drag it around. Who is the tyrant in Pauls thought and who in “Reformed” thought? In theirs its obviously God; in Pauls I’m thinking the tyrant could be the rabbis and the corpse the “oral law”. Who delivered Paul from Rabbinical Judaism (the tyrant) and the corpse (the oral law)? I dont think I ever understood this passage before. Why the oral law not the law?
Asv of 7.23-24: “but I see a different law [a different law?] in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin [a law of sin or sinful law?] which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?”
Seems the corpse = the law of sin (i.e. idiom for sinful law) = different law. The law of his mind is the real law, the different law is the rabbinic “oral” law. But how is it “in his members”? Hes so indoctrinated into it its in his bones. Who could possibly deliver him from that?
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Paul is referring to the weakness of his mortality. Once the law is striped of its ability to condemn, it cannot produce desires within that are strong enough to enslave. Yet, sinful desires can still harass the believer due to weakness. The law of Paul’s mind speaks to the mind of Christ obtained through the new birth resulting in a love for God’s law/word/truth. These two war against each other. Sinful desire within the believer should be recognized as such and deprived of provisions.
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Paul, reading and I had to comment (even given our recent unfortunate history). So…understand if you don’t post, but:
A. Thanks for clearing up all the babble. I swear I didn’t know what the heck these dudes were going on about until you started asking some questions that made sense.
B I love how Rusty says he’s a monergist and then goes on, when you ask, to say he “doesn’t care about Calvin and his 3 classes”. Lol! Contradict much, Russ?
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That contradiction of Rusty’s got my attention too. Calvin and his 3 classes are very important within context, but I guess it’s better swept under the carpet with all the other rotting and rotten Calvinist/Reformed rubbish. We can’t go and say something derogatory about this evil Calvin godman, hell, no…even if it’s true.
Some Reformed liar and deceiver wrote (on his deathbed or something): “I’m so thankful for [the] active obedience of Christ. No hope without it.”
Active obedience? Of Christ? No hope without it? That’s foreign to the Bible. I wish people would stop spreading that lie too, but I guess that’s one of the many faulty hinges of the “reformation” (that great and “heavenly” act that God supposedly kicked start because He had made such a huge blunder before then.)
Cry me a river.
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From page 59 of The Truth About New Calvinism: “Westminster Theological Seminary was founded by a group of professors who left Princeton in 1929. Its primary founder was Gresham Machen who also helped found the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, so the Presbyterian church has always been closely associated with Westminster. In 1982, Westminster added another branch in California. Machen was infatuated with the idea that Christ’s perfect life was part of the atonement. Supposedly, Christ had to obey the law perfectly in our stead to make justification valid. This was known as Christ’s ‘active obedience’ and His death on the cross, according to this theology, was his ‘passive obedience.’ Machen even sent a friend a telegraph from his deathbed proclaiming that there was ‘no hope’ apart from this belief— which is now an event that is Reformed folklore at Westminster along with many other storied exploits from the Reformed Hall of Fame. Others believe Christ’s obedience to the cross was sufficient for a valid justification by virtue of who He is—His righteousness had no need to be established, nor was there a need for Him to obey in our stead for sanctification purposes.”
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“Folklore.” That sums up the whole dirty mess that’s known as Reformed “theology.”
Thanks for the info about Machen; now he’s just another name in the very long line of deceivers, liars. and workers of iniquity.
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And Paul, you are debating with a bunch of mystics who couldn’t reason scripture if Christ Himself were their tutor–I totally agree with Andy, here. You cannot reason with this enchanted lot. They are still in the desert gazing at the cities of the world they are being promised. They hate themselves and they looooove projecting it onto humanity at large. And it’s infuriating to see these bards of Satan accusing you of doing the devil’s work. Sickening.
I feel for you, here, man. Like trying to chop down a tree with a rubber hammer.
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I agree, John.
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After 10 years of this sort of backhole non reasoning at ground zero, I tend to ignore the doctrinal stuff and look at their methods. They can only interact as indoctrinated. They cannot fathom any concept outside determinism. This comes out early on. They start with a confession and every scripture is made to fit within it. They seek to reframe any point another makes.
Frankly, we have several generations taught to think this way whether the issue is Calvinism or political correctness. It’s all the same. Group think. Individualism and srlf governing is evil and selfish. And impossible to them.
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The written script was enlightening. When it is convenient to call upon John Calvin, then the Institutes it is. When it doesn’t fit the narrative or the argument, then cast it aside (i.e., we don’t believe that or we don’t follow John Calvin). Double-speak and twisted scripture. Why preach the gospel at all? If one is elect, then one will be saved no matter what. If one is non-elect or temporarily elect, then one will be damned no matter what.
What is the point? And to say one has a choice to become a Christian or not is also a lie. If it is all double imputation, why bother with anything? Just affirm the New Calvinist Reformed doctrine and do nothing. Because anything one does (i.e., cooperation with the Holy Spirit, obedience, striving for holiness) ruins “faith alone” and denies “Christ alone”. Indoctrination, absolutely. Cult, yes. I saw no independent thought.
I kept trying to make sense of it. I understood faith alone in justification. And yes, that is a gift (the new birth). When it came to “faith alone, Christ alone, no righteousness of our own” … in sanctification … well, obviously, my answer (i.e., cooperation, obedience, surrender, seek holiness) was not the “right answer.” I am so very glad the good Lord opened my eyes. The very best decision I have ever made was to walk away, not to return.
A comment for Linda: I am horrified as I watch these well-know Christian names link politically correct (liberal left) politics with supposed Christian morality. These men are putting their own names and reputations into trashing Trump and are embracing platforms and agendas that don’t look at all like what Christ taught. This will backfire big-time because I venture to guess that at least half of their congregations are “conservative right.”
Shameful. Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. I googled Christian Charities and refugee resettlement. Can we spell “lucrative US federal government contracts”? Baptist, Lutheran, Assembly of God, Catholic (and others) — millions of dollars, big, big money. These groups have squandered any moral authority and credibility. The platforms are based upon their bottom lines and not the interests of the US and its citizens.
To say the least, I am angry.
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Susan, in my HUGE circle of friends of two, we’ve often said that we should find the nearest railway line, put our heads on the tracks and wait for the train to end it all because if we’re elect, then hoohaa!, and if we’re not, then what the heck is the point of hanging around any longer? Such is the absurdness of that diabolical theology. You used “indoctrination” and “cult” to describe this lot. I thought I was the only one to do that. You’ve won a signed copy of the ESV study “bible” (signed by the mangod Mac himself).
Oh, and concerning the Westminster “catechism” (and all man-made rubbish before and since then): it’s not worth a toilet roll, used or not. And that is not an understatement.
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Oh John … hanging my head in shame … I have a copy of the ESV study bible — leather bound — but not signed by Pope John. I obtained a copy during my time in the Protestant wilderness. Actually, if I ignore the “doctrinal slant”, the historical and cultural commentary in the footnotes can be informative. The best heresies turn out to be mixed with truth. Yes, indoctrination and cult. There is no critical thinking as to where the doctrine leads. None. Nada. Zilch. What gives me great comfort is that I am walking in the opposite direction — against the vast majority of “the Christian faithful.” Oh, I got another church postcard in the mail. A new church plant: I can choose “happiness” or “crappiness” (I kid you not!) — just go and listen to the enlightening sermon series about how our thoughts determine our mood, attitude, joy in life. (I am sure there is much truth to that, but if I were looking for a motivational speaker, a life coach and/or a therapist, I wouldn’t be headed to my local church. Therapist pastor seasoned with a few verses of scripture from the Message. Awesome.)
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Sum zero life thinking will certainly lead to a peace that looks at life’s struggles with a smirky grin; it’s depraved indifference posing as the peace of God.
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Yes, I know you are correct — it is depraved indifference posing as the peace of God. What truly irks me is that these folks walk around with a smile plastered on their faces (love, joy, peace, laughter) in an ignorance is absolute bliss mode. Meanwhile, my soul has been ransacked by the truth. This process of awareness and of awakening has been very painful and very lonely. And yet, I know that I have been blessed. My eyes see, my ears hear, and my heart/ soul has answered. They have eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. For, if they saw and if they heard, they would weep and wail and mourn.
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Don’t be lonely, come to this year’s conference here in Xenia,
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When is that Paul? Dates, topics, details? Or is the information somewhere on the website that I am missing?
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Susan
2017.ttanc.com
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Susan: 2017.ttanc.com the info is there.
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Prior to being a Christian a life of fear and anxiety (condemnation, guilty conscience, fear of judgement, fear of death) led me into deep depression. After becoming a Christian, I was full of assurance and joy…then I went church hunting. What did I find there? Only reasons to doubt my salvation. Eventually I found myself back into deep depression. Why? Same reason. Did the “biblical counseling” I received help? Sure it did because it focused on the absolute sovereignty of God and the goal of emptying myself of all value before God. Don’t worry, be happy, God is in total control. Eat and drink for tomorrow we die. Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be). Recently, I went to a funeral for a longtime pastor/acquaintance of mine who was heavily involved in the biblical counseling movement. Before the funeral, I predicted to my wife Susan that the atmosphere was going to be very stoic and there wouldn’t be a WET eye in the place. I was absolutely spot-on; in fact, his very own son stood up in front of the hundreds of people who were there and proudly proclaimed that his father was a “wicked sinner.” Bottom line: assurance of salvation comes from knowing that Christ ended the law’s condemnation, and justification is defined by having this treasure of the new birth in earthen vessels…not the perpetual imputation of Christ’s fulfillment of perfect-law keeping through faithfulness to the Protestant institutional church where weekly condemnation is the order of the day.
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Correction: “WET eye in the place.”
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Susan, I also have some dirty leftovers from a previous wilderness period. Every now and then, a silly one-liner still pops up (“everything will work out as it should”), or an anti-biblical line from a Protestant “hymn” comes to mind. But it gets fewer as time goes by.
Blessings! It only gets better (that’s not a Reformed line, is it? Is it?)
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Susan, I have been out of the Calvinist blender for so long that I literally couldn’t understand what in the heck these guys were talking about until Paul started asking questions. Just mystery, contradiction, appealing to scripture sans any coherent context. I’d almost forgotten how awful it is. I’m not sure whether to be thankful or sorry that I read all their comments. Lol
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And did you notice how the one guy defended the WC by appealing to proof texts?!!!! Shake my head. I swear reality is stranger than fiction. You can’t make this stuff up. And Paul is the one out in left field? What is the world coming to?
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