“Be careful that in your feverish attempt to thwart authoritarianism you don’t deny the diversity of gifts in Christ’s body.”
What does authoritarianism have to do with the diversity of gifts in the body of Christ? I don’t recall any of the gifts having anything to do with authority.
“What I don’t believe is that every believer is as clear headed as every other believer. I have known some godly people who could scarcely hold two thoughts in their heads at the same time. Such people are fine fellow pilgrims, but I don’t want them teaching me theology.”
Inherent in Randy’s statement is the presumed assumption of incompetency on the part of individuals whom he has judged. Your elitist heretical Platonism is heard loud and clear.
“You have again attributed to me a belief that is not mine. I doubt that even a modern Theonomist would hold such a view, but I would not presume to speak for them.”
Randy, it does not matter whether or not you yourself personally believe this. What does matter is what history has proven, namely that John Calvin and his followers are guilty of the torture and murder of Michael Servetus, of Arminians, of Anabaptists, Quakers, and other so-called “dissenters”. The Puritans (who were also Calvinists as everyone here knows) are guilty of the murder of at least several women on trumped up charges of witchcraft. Did not the Lord Jesus Christ Himself say that “we would know them by their fruits”? The fruits of Calvinists (and Romanists too) indicate that both are are not the true church of God.
Randy, you have chosen to follow your guru John Calvin and are thus tainted by Calvin’s sins and those of his other followers. Whether you like it or not, you are judged by the actions of the company you keep.
Randy, as a dispensational 4-point Arminian “once saved, always saved” Baptist, I refuse to follow your evil filthy deterministic god.
I have never been a follower of Calvin. If I were, I would probably feel compelled to defend all his beliefs. I feel no such compulsion. “Calvinist” is a nick name for those who believe God saves sinners all by himself. I don’t know of any of us who believe in progressive justification. I know of no modern Calvinist who would advocate capital or corporal punishment for heretics. Since I would be considered a Calvinist soteriologically, it does matter whether I believe this personally. Paul has painted all Calvinists with a broad brush and has accused us of being murdering tyrants who are only prevented from killing heretics by the law forbidding such action [see above]. What Calvin and others have done or believed has no bearing on what we believe and practice. Though you are an Arminian, I am fairly confident you would not want to be lumped with all the Arminians who have lived or are living.
As you have pointed out, you and I love and worship two completely different Gods. Though I could never worship such a god as yours, I would never be so blasphemous as to call him evil and filthy.
I am not sure how you escape the biblical texts that describe God as the one who accomplishes all things according to his eternal, unchangeable purpose. Any God who predestines is deterministic and the God I serve has clearly predestined certain things will occur. Perhaps your concept of “deterministic” is different from mine. If you mean by the term that a deterministic God actively causes all the events in the universe, both good and evil, then I don’t believe God is “deterministic” either [neither did Calvin incidentally].
paulspassingthoughts said, on February 14, 2014 at 7:29 PM
Randy–I see a glimpse of reality in your comment, except for the fact that most people would scoff at your notion if “Calvin” was replaced with “Hitler.” And the only difference between the two is Calvin has enjoyed Protestant propaganda. Furthermore, Calvin wasn’t the only murderer among the Reformers by far. Moreover, the logic’s seed bears the same fruit in our day and you rightly assess my assertion that Calvinists would murder dissenters in our day if not for the American Constitution. In fact, Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald have gone on record with the following: they fantasize about murdering dissenters.
You wrote, “Inherent in Randy’s statement is the presumed assumption of incompetency on the part of individuals whom he has judged. Your elitist heretical Platonism is heard loud and clear.”
The biblical and theological incompetency of many in the modern church is staggering and impossible to miss. Such an acknowledgement has nothing to do with elitism; it is simply a sad reality. I am not judging these people, merely observing them. If you don’t believe what I say, simply prepare a basic theology exam and give it to them. Surely you can acknowledge that not every believer has the same gifts or the same level of biblical and theological understanding. Again, you have prejudged me and what I believe.
paulspassingthoughts said, on February 14, 2014 at 7:41 PM
Randy–Your bunch has been running the show since the 90’s–Christians are dumbed down theologically by design. In fact, you are of the New Covenant Theology whoredom that advocates the Gnostic concept of interpreting all reality through a single prism. The first tenet of NCT is that all reality must be interpreted through the gospel. And of course, the elder is the expert at seeing Christ in every verse of Scripture. Your statement is disingenuous and you just come here playing word games like all Gnostic whores.
lydiasellerofpurple said, on February 14, 2014 at 7:54 PM
“BTW, are you willing to to be judged by all the actions and beliefs of the Irvingites and of J. N. Darby?”
This is a classic tactic from that group. They frame the debate by mapping you to some guru (dead or alive) they claim you agree with whether you have ever read them or not. Then they start deconstructing from there. They ALWAYS assume you were “taught” by a guru. That is because that is what the know. Their filters are ingrained.
I have seen the same tactics Randy uses here on so many YRR/Neo Cal and Dominionist pastor blogs It is the same stuff over and over. You can literally quote them back to themselves over time and they will claim that is not what they believe or you misunderstood them.
It gets old It is like the biggest smoke and mirror doctrine I have ever seen. Built on deceptive tactics to “win” arguments.
Here is one to consider. The bible mentions “teachers” (and pastors, eldes) so how far do they take these functions ignoring other passages that balance it out? Ridiculously far. Institutional far. Hierarchy far Their entire doctrine is built on the filter of lording it over.
lydiasellerofpurple said, on February 14, 2014 at 7:56 PM
“Surely you can acknowledge that not every believer has the same gifts or the same level of biblical and theological understanding. ”
I met some illiterate peasants in a third world country that are more like Christ than anyone else I have ever met. So what are we to do with such people? We could not DARE let them pastor or teach.
First, I am neither a follower nor a defender of either Driscoll or MacDonald. Second, I agree that the practices of the Reformers and the Puritans resulted from their doctrine. Logically, their view of the unity of “the covenant of grace” necessitated their implementation of the penal sanctions of the Mosaic law. They would have believed themselves unfaithful to God if they had failed to implement these sanctions.
As I have suggested to you before, there is a difference between a soteriological “Calvinist” and one who buys into the whole covenant theology thing. In my view, the only consistent action a covenant theologian can take is to execute witches, Sodomites, and heretics. The theological foundation for not doing so is the unsupportable view that the law is not a contiguous whole and that only the 10 Commandments remain.
paulspassingthoughts said, on February 14, 2014 at 8:26 PM
Randy–Reformed soteriology is based on Platonism–that’s per Augustine. The fruit, and the doctrine is based on Plato’s presuppositions concerning mankind. Those who can’t contribute to the “group” need to go bye, bye. Those who won’t do what’s best for the group by following the philosopher kings need to go bye, bye. Faith (truth) needs to be enforced for the collective good. In Geneva, it was not good for society if everyone didn’t go to church and listen to Calvin’s dreadful droning. Hence, the law, and people were fined or imprisoned if they didn’t show up. It wasn’t about Moses, that’s nonsense, it has always been about Plato’s caste system.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Incidentally, you have still not responded to my debate challenge by way of Skype.
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When will Calvinists understand that their words are not the very creation of reality itself?
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“Be careful that in your feverish attempt to thwart authoritarianism you don’t deny the diversity of gifts in Christ’s body.”
What does authoritarianism have to do with the diversity of gifts in the body of Christ? I don’t recall any of the gifts having anything to do with authority.
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SNAP!
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From GRR:
“What I don’t believe is that every believer is as clear headed as every other believer. I have known some godly people who could scarcely hold two thoughts in their heads at the same time. Such people are fine fellow pilgrims, but I don’t want them teaching me theology.”
Inherent in Randy’s statement is the presumed assumption of incompetency on the part of individuals whom he has judged. Your elitist heretical Platonism is heard loud and clear.
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Yup.
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“You have again attributed to me a belief that is not mine. I doubt that even a modern Theonomist would hold such a view, but I would not presume to speak for them.”
Randy, it does not matter whether or not you yourself personally believe this. What does matter is what history has proven, namely that John Calvin and his followers are guilty of the torture and murder of Michael Servetus, of Arminians, of Anabaptists, Quakers, and other so-called “dissenters”. The Puritans (who were also Calvinists as everyone here knows) are guilty of the murder of at least several women on trumped up charges of witchcraft. Did not the Lord Jesus Christ Himself say that “we would know them by their fruits”? The fruits of Calvinists (and Romanists too) indicate that both are are not the true church of God.
Randy, you have chosen to follow your guru John Calvin and are thus tainted by Calvin’s sins and those of his other followers. Whether you like it or not, you are judged by the actions of the company you keep.
Randy, as a dispensational 4-point Arminian “once saved, always saved” Baptist, I refuse to follow your evil filthy deterministic god.
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…while sanctifying his following thereof because, “I don’t believe everything Calvin believed.”
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Ryan,
I have never been a follower of Calvin. If I were, I would probably feel compelled to defend all his beliefs. I feel no such compulsion. “Calvinist” is a nick name for those who believe God saves sinners all by himself. I don’t know of any of us who believe in progressive justification. I know of no modern Calvinist who would advocate capital or corporal punishment for heretics. Since I would be considered a Calvinist soteriologically, it does matter whether I believe this personally. Paul has painted all Calvinists with a broad brush and has accused us of being murdering tyrants who are only prevented from killing heretics by the law forbidding such action [see above]. What Calvin and others have done or believed has no bearing on what we believe and practice. Though you are an Arminian, I am fairly confident you would not want to be lumped with all the Arminians who have lived or are living.
As you have pointed out, you and I love and worship two completely different Gods. Though I could never worship such a god as yours, I would never be so blasphemous as to call him evil and filthy.
I am not sure how you escape the biblical texts that describe God as the one who accomplishes all things according to his eternal, unchangeable purpose. Any God who predestines is deterministic and the God I serve has clearly predestined certain things will occur. Perhaps your concept of “deterministic” is different from mine. If you mean by the term that a deterministic God actively causes all the events in the universe, both good and evil, then I don’t believe God is “deterministic” either [neither did Calvin incidentally].
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Randy–I see a glimpse of reality in your comment, except for the fact that most people would scoff at your notion if “Calvin” was replaced with “Hitler.” And the only difference between the two is Calvin has enjoyed Protestant propaganda. Furthermore, Calvin wasn’t the only murderer among the Reformers by far. Moreover, the logic’s seed bears the same fruit in our day and you rightly assess my assertion that Calvinists would murder dissenters in our day if not for the American Constitution. In fact, Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald have gone on record with the following: they fantasize about murdering dissenters.
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Ryan,
U
BTW, are you willing to to be judged by all the actions and beliefs of the Irvingites and of J. N. Darby?
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Ryan,
You wrote, “Inherent in Randy’s statement is the presumed assumption of incompetency on the part of individuals whom he has judged. Your elitist heretical Platonism is heard loud and clear.”
The biblical and theological incompetency of many in the modern church is staggering and impossible to miss. Such an acknowledgement has nothing to do with elitism; it is simply a sad reality. I am not judging these people, merely observing them. If you don’t believe what I say, simply prepare a basic theology exam and give it to them. Surely you can acknowledge that not every believer has the same gifts or the same level of biblical and theological understanding. Again, you have prejudged me and what I believe.
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Randy–Your bunch has been running the show since the 90’s–Christians are dumbed down theologically by design. In fact, you are of the New Covenant Theology whoredom that advocates the Gnostic concept of interpreting all reality through a single prism. The first tenet of NCT is that all reality must be interpreted through the gospel. And of course, the elder is the expert at seeing Christ in every verse of Scripture. Your statement is disingenuous and you just come here playing word games like all Gnostic whores.
LikeLike
“BTW, are you willing to to be judged by all the actions and beliefs of the Irvingites and of J. N. Darby?”
This is a classic tactic from that group. They frame the debate by mapping you to some guru (dead or alive) they claim you agree with whether you have ever read them or not. Then they start deconstructing from there. They ALWAYS assume you were “taught” by a guru. That is because that is what the know. Their filters are ingrained.
I have seen the same tactics Randy uses here on so many YRR/Neo Cal and Dominionist pastor blogs It is the same stuff over and over. You can literally quote them back to themselves over time and they will claim that is not what they believe or you misunderstood them.
It gets old It is like the biggest smoke and mirror doctrine I have ever seen. Built on deceptive tactics to “win” arguments.
Here is one to consider. The bible mentions “teachers” (and pastors, eldes) so how far do they take these functions ignoring other passages that balance it out? Ridiculously far. Institutional far. Hierarchy far Their entire doctrine is built on the filter of lording it over.
LikeLike
“Surely you can acknowledge that not every believer has the same gifts or the same level of biblical and theological understanding. ”
I met some illiterate peasants in a third world country that are more like Christ than anyone else I have ever met. So what are we to do with such people? We could not DARE let them pastor or teach.
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Paul,
First, I am neither a follower nor a defender of either Driscoll or MacDonald. Second, I agree that the practices of the Reformers and the Puritans resulted from their doctrine. Logically, their view of the unity of “the covenant of grace” necessitated their implementation of the penal sanctions of the Mosaic law. They would have believed themselves unfaithful to God if they had failed to implement these sanctions.
As I have suggested to you before, there is a difference between a soteriological “Calvinist” and one who buys into the whole covenant theology thing. In my view, the only consistent action a covenant theologian can take is to execute witches, Sodomites, and heretics. The theological foundation for not doing so is the unsupportable view that the law is not a contiguous whole and that only the 10 Commandments remain.
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Randy–Reformed soteriology is based on Platonism–that’s per Augustine. The fruit, and the doctrine is based on Plato’s presuppositions concerning mankind. Those who can’t contribute to the “group” need to go bye, bye. Those who won’t do what’s best for the group by following the philosopher kings need to go bye, bye. Faith (truth) needs to be enforced for the collective good. In Geneva, it was not good for society if everyone didn’t go to church and listen to Calvin’s dreadful droning. Hence, the law, and people were fined or imprisoned if they didn’t show up. It wasn’t about Moses, that’s nonsense, it has always been about Plato’s caste system.
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