Paul's Passing Thoughts

How to Debate a Calvinist Made Easy

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on July 26, 2013

ppt-jpeg4The first thing one must remember in debating a Calvinist is the Calvinist protocol: set and create the framework for the argument in order to dictate a certain outcome. Calvinists will speak from a certain construct and communicate from that viewpoint only, usually without the opponent knowing what the construct is, but if the Calvinist stays within that framework, he/she will have an answer for everything and this will quickly confuse the opponent. Calvinists win the argument every time because opponents don’t understand their metaphysics and epistemology. But that is a discussion not needed here if you follow my directions carefully.

Do not discuss symptoms. You must distinguish symptoms from the core problem. Stay away from quotes that address other issues (symptoms), and issues such as the doctrine of election. Calvinism encompasses a mass of symptomatic issues. These are the tentacles of the octopus. Fighting an octopus one tentacle at a time will lead to a quick demise—stay focused on the head.

A debate doesn’t have to be limited to one visit, and you are not obligated to move on to other issues from a concern that is not answered. Let me repeat that: “you are not obligated to move on to other issues from a concern that is not answered.” And here are your three concerns:

1. Calvinism denies eternal security.

2. If you can lose your salvation, what do you have to do to keep it?

3. Calvinists don’t believe people change.

John Piper is the universally accepted elder statesman of New Calvinism. Use this short article to establish concerns one and two.

Concern three is the HOW we keep our salvation which answers concern number two. Since we have to live our Christian life the same way we were saved to maintain/keep our salvation, we must live by the same gospel that saved us. The mantra, “We must preach the gospel to ourselves every day” should speak for itself. We keep ourselves saved by staying at the foot of the cross which entails a perpetual need for the same forgiveness that saved us, and that can only be perpetually received by a perpetual reliance on the same gospel that saved us. If we believe we change for the better, the need for the same gospel that saved us is eradicated and we lose our salvation.

This is what is behind the “T” in TULIP (total depravity) which unbeknown to many also includes the saints. Hence, the following chart is universally accepted among the Reformed:

gospelgrid11

 

Notice that we don’t change, only the cross changes. Don’t get into what the cross represents in this illustration as that involves complex Reformed metaphysics. Stick with the point/concern, not symptoms. You are not the Calvinist—they are; therefore, you’re the one with the questions and it’s your agenda. “Living by the gospel” in order to stay saved entails focusing on our unchangeable evil verses God’s holiness and thereby perpetually recognizing our need for the gospel and continued salvation from our sins.

Relevant quotes:

“Where we land on these issues is perhaps the most significant factor in how we approach our own faith and practice and communicate it to the world. If not only the unregenerate but the regenerate are always dependent at every moment on the free grace of God disclosed in the gospel, then nothing can raise those who are spiritually dead or continually give life to Christ’s flock but the Spirit working through the gospel. When this happens (not just once, but every time we encounter the gospel afresh), the Spirit progressively transforms us into Christ’s image. Start with Christ (that is, the gospel) and you get sanctification in the bargain; begin with Christ and move on to something else, and you lose both” (Michael Horton: Christless Christianity; p.62).

“Moreover, the message of free reconciliation with God is not promulgated for one or two days, but is declared to be perpetual in the Church (2 Cor. 5:18, 19). Hence believers have not even to the end of life any other righteousness than that which is there described. Christ ever remains a Mediator to reconcile the Father to us, and there is a perpetual efficacy in his death—viz. ablution, satisfaction, expiation; in short, perfect obedience, by which all our iniquities are covered” (John Calvin: CI 3.14.11) [note: “ablution” means “A washing” which refers to salvation and stated as a onetime past event in the Bible; 1COR 6:11, John 13:9-11].

“The flesh, or sinful nature of the believer is no different from that of the unbeliever. ‘The regenerate man is no whit different in substance from what He was before his regeneration.’ — Bavinck. The whole church must join the confession, ‘Have mercy upon us miserable sinners.’ The witness of both Testaments is unmistakably clear on this point (Present Truth: Sanctification-Its Mainspring Volume 16 Article 13).

“There are several problems with that essentially Legalistic view of Sanctification, as reflected in the following observations:

1) Our flesh cannot get better.  In Romans 7:18 Paul wrote, “For I know that NOTHING good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh…”  Your flesh cannot be improved.  Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit.

2) Our new nature, on the other hand cannot get better, because it has already been made new and perfect through regeneration.  We have been given a “new heart” (new nature, or new spirit), and not a defective one, which would be absurd.  This new spirit has been made “one spirit with Him” (1 Corinthians 6:17), such that when we “walk according to the Spirit” (i.e., the Holy Spirit), we also walk according to our own new spirit.

3) Those who deal with Sanctification by zeroing in on so-called “Progressive” Sanctification as the main point of Sanctification are at best in Kindergarten (Terry Rayburn: Grace for Life blog; Progressive Sanctification – Are We Sanctified By Works? 2/16/2012).

paul

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  1. […] How to Debate a Calvinist Made Easy. […]

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  2. Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on July 26, 2013 at 1:15 PM

    Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch.

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  3. james jordan's avatar james jordan said, on July 26, 2013 at 8:19 PM

    The Calvinists are using Saul Alinksy and to greater advantage even than Obama. I outline how they use each Rule for Radicals here: http://descriptivegrace.wordpress.com/2013/07/27/how-calvinists-use-alinskys-rules-for-radicals/

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  4. lydiasellerofpurple's avatar lydiasellerofpurple said, on July 27, 2013 at 1:50 AM

    Paul thanks for putting the Tanc 2013 vids on side bar. I have sent them to a few people.

    BTW: I cannot debate Calvinists anymore. I just tell them their determinist God is a short walk to Allah. And that Calvin is their Imam.

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  5. cigardawg's avatar cigardawg said, on August 9, 2013 at 5:22 PM

    Reading this site is like watching a retarded monkey try to procreate with a greased football; It’s funny and sad at the same time. Have fun abusing your personal straw men.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on August 9, 2013 at 7:19 PM

      CD,

      Wow, so gracious for a New Calvinist. Not used to this level of charity coming from that camp.

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  6. CigarDawg's avatar CigarDawg said, on August 10, 2013 at 12:02 AM

    Not a “New Calvinist”, but thanks for your snarky judgment. Where is the love for someone like me, a sinner in need of grace?

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on August 10, 2013 at 10:13 AM

      CD,
      According to your beliefs and Calvin, perpetual absolution in the Reformed temple.

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  7. br.d's avatar br.d said, on February 28, 2018 at 1:56 PM

    Are we really sure issues (1-3) above are best to address as one’s to focus on Calvinism’s weaknesses?

    From my perspective, the shear magnitude of double-think and double-speak is the biggest red-flag that Calvinism is unbiblical. Unless one internalizes – as Calvinists do – a god who is a double-think god, and the authors of scripture are experts at double-speak.

    In the Calvinist scheme, Calvin’s god speaks to Adam and Eve, deceiving them into believing he wills their obedience – while secretly withholding from them his -quote “secret will” – which is the exact opposite.

    He “renders certain” his people’s every neurological impulse, and then commands them to DO OTHERWISE AS-IF he gave them the power to do so.

    And when they do the very thing he immutably decreed/fated they do – he then punishes them AS-IF he gave them an Alternate Possibility and wasn’t the one who made it their inevitable unavoidable fate.

    How the Calvinist keeps his brain from recognizing his deity is a deceiver (by Biblical definition) is nothing short of a pure psychology of double-think and thought-blocking techniques.

    The Calvinist exhibits a love-hate relationship with his own belief system. Calvin teaches that ALL things are determined in every part. And then instructs his disciples to -quote “go about one’s office AS-IF nothing is determined in any part”. And that double-think is supposed to be biblical?

    Calvinist mantras include self-contradicting statements like:
    Calvin’s god wills all men saved but not in such a way that he wills all men saved.
    Calvin’s god determines ALL things which come to pass, but in such a way that he does NOT determine SOME things which come to pass.

    From my perspective, that Calvinist language is as saturated with beguiling double-speak as it is, is the most revealing red-flag that something is wrong with it. Unless one embraces the confession that the God of scripture is a double-speak deceiver and the authors of scriptures hold that everything is determined in every part – while authoring into scripture a lie (for them) that nothing is determined in any part.

    For me, once a Christian starts to recognize the shear magnitude of double-think forced upon the poor undiscerning convert of Calvinism, whose mind becomes “re-formed” into two compartments of self-contradicting realities – the tortured psychology of it becomes the very best warning sign.

    Wonderful web-site!!!
    Blessings :-]

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar Paul M. Dohse Sr. said, on March 1, 2018 at 8:05 AM

      Freewill is an element of reality. Unlimited possibilities is an element of reality. God is sovereign, but is not totally defined or limited by sovereignty. God is unlimited. The so-called attributes of God are clearly very problematic on several levels and limit God. On one wise, the Immutability of God is a Platonist principle. Plenary determinism is not unique to the church, and has been the dominate philosophy from day one. All in all, the serpent presented himself as a mediator between Eve and God. Determinism is closely tied to the idea of human mediators between God and man. These are deep subjects, but the smoking gun supplied by the Bible that damns church is very elementary. Church, whether Protestant or otherwise, but especially Protestantism, makes perfect law-keeping the standard of justifcation. This stands in stark contrast to what the apostles wrote about.

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