The Lie
Paul – in my time in the reformed church, I was taught and agreed that through our faith we are saved (justification and salvation done – complete) and we then begin our lifelong journey of sanctification as we learn and grow in our knowledge and faith. When I view the chart I have always interpreted it in the same way that I interpreted my college education – the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. In that same way, the more I know of our father, the more ugly and selfish my sins look to me. I have never been taught any more than that and I believe the chart makes a good point in that regard. If there is a deeper meaning than what I have presented I have not heard it.
Anon,
Your perfectly reasonable sounding statement is the bait that hooks people into the lie. The chart is indicative of the founding principle of Reformed theology: knowledge of good and evil. Read the first sentence of book one in the Calvin Institutes. Hence, deeper knowledge of those two things define both (reality) and continually glorify God. But the Scriptures make it clear that God is most glorified by us becoming more like Him and displaying that to the world, not a deeper self-realization of our own potential evil. Moreover, if we aren’t guilty of certain depths of evil, to ascribe ourselves to it is not the truth. Therefore, this is just another primary pillar of biblical metaphysics that Calvinism turns completely upside down. And the implications are chilling: without evil, wisdom cannot be obtained. That is a precedent that has given birth to horrific episodes of evil throughout human history. Obviously, if a deeper knowledge of evil is efficacious to gaining wisdom, evil will not be perceived in a healthy way. I am utterly convinced that this is at the root of indifference to injustice that is so prevalent in Calvinistic circles.
paul
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Don’t you see how you are putting words in my mouth so to speak? I did not say “God is sovereign so there can be no free will.” Whether sinners have free will or not has nothing to do with God’s sovereignty. That is your unfounded presupposition. Do you even understand what “circular reasoning” is? Do you never even attempt to answer questions that are posed to you? Perhaps even circular reasoning is better than no reasoning at all.
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Defending and correcting are not the same. I will never seek to defend something I don’t believe in the first place. State my position accurately and I will defend it to the death.
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Lydia,
” Commands do not imply ability on the part of the one commanded.” So you see, your thinking here is the root cmeaning of “progressive justification”. God commands of us what we are unable to do so He must do it for us. Calvinists think this sounds pious. It blasphemes the Holy Spirit.
Here again, you are stating something I don’t believe and is not the teaching of classic Calvinism. No one believes in “progressive justification.” What God commands us to do in Sanctification, he gives us the desire and the ability to perform. We are the ones who obey, not God. That is something I can defend. I can’t defend what you think I believe because it is a straw man.
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The Old Testament is also clear about David reigning as king in a future kingdom. Do you seriously take that literally? Or could that mean a king of the Davidic line, namely Christ, will be enthroned? Does Romans 11 teach that every single Hebrew will be converted, “All Israel will be saved.” Most Dispensationalists don’t believe that. Does any NT passage state that Israel will be restored as a Nation to the land to reinstitute animal sacrifices in an earthly temple? You just can’t cram all that into Romans 11.
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Lydia,
I have never contrasted total depravity with sinless perfection. I don’t know what you are talking about.
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“Oh, and by the way, let me congratulate you on having grappled with all the difficult texts relating to the future of Israel and arrived at the point that you can now be dogmatic about that subject. I have known people who were proficient in Greek and Hebrew and had studied these texts in the original languages who had not arrived at that level of dogmatism.”
Yes, congratulate me and every other person who will study the Word of God and rely on the Holy Spirit for truth- I will take your compliments! I could care less about the so called experts- what you are saying here is that we lay people cannot figure out Scripture, only those who are the “learned” ones have that ability. No different then Catholics. Then my friend, how can you be so dogmatic about the Calvinist system being the only system to decipher truth? I look at Scripture as it is plainly written. I do not go in and allegorically change some parts of Scripture and make literal others, which you just did with Romans. You took one chapter of Romans and deciphered it as literal (rightly so) and then you or others will allegorically decipher/ or ignore Romans 11. This has been the problem with Calvinists- they will legitimize what works for the Calvinist system and allegorically change what does not, such as Revelation. Don’t think it works that way.
Free Will- hmm….. the ability for sinful man to freely choose who will be his master; To choose whom he will freely love (not forcibly love). Sounds like everyday life does it not?—-I love my wife because I choose to want to love her. I will love my boss (as a Christian) because I freely choose to love and respect him or her out of obedience to God because I love God. Does this not sound like normal relationship stuff?
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Goodbye trust4himonly. Its been real.
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T4H,
LOL! Are you running Calvinists out of here again?
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Paul,
Canons of Dort
THIRD AND FOURTH HEAD: ARTICLE 11. But when God accomplishes His good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, He not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illuminates their minds by His Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit He pervades the inmost recesses of man; He opens the closed and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised; infuses new qualities into the will, which, though heretofore dead, He quickens; from being evil, disobedient, and refractory, He renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.
That doesn’t sound like total depravity to me.
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Sam,
Of course it doesn’t. What does “heretofore” mean? Read the words carefully. It isn’t saying that we change. What is “it.” Why wouldn’t they just plainly say that we do the work? Read the words carefully: the statement doesn’t say that we are new creatures who do good works. In more recent Reformed writings it’s, “heart transformation.” This is code for “realm.” People assume that when the words “heart” and “will” are used that they are talking about us personally. Not so. The Reformers knew that the whole Jesus obeys for us thing could’t be taught in broad daylight. I could dig up quotes to make the case that Tullian T. believes that we obey, but it is common knowledge that he doesn’t believe that.
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No wonder that people come out of the Calvinist system in such despair! One is told to love God out of obligation not out of love-
What is so hard to understand about free will?-
Free will = choice to do something out of voluntary will (using reason;a brain to think and make decisions)
No free will = forced to do something; involuntary ( no different then blinking my eye or a reflex)
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trust4himonly,
“Yes, congratulate me and every other person who will study the Word of God and rely on the Holy Spirit for truth- I will take your compliments! I could care less about the so called experts- what you are saying here is that we lay people cannot figure out Scripture, only those who are the “learned” ones have that ability.”
No, what I am saying is I don’t even think the “learned” ones have it all figured out. Some think they do, but I think their dogmatism is unwarranted. Consider how badly people before Jesus’ first coming had misunderstood prophecy about it. It was only fully understood in the light of its fulfillment. I think the same is true about the second coming.
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