The Lie
Paul – in my time in the reformed church, I was taught and agreed that through our faith we are saved (justification and salvation done – complete) and we then begin our lifelong journey of sanctification as we learn and grow in our knowledge and faith. When I view the chart I have always interpreted it in the same way that I interpreted my college education – the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. In that same way, the more I know of our father, the more ugly and selfish my sins look to me. I have never been taught any more than that and I believe the chart makes a good point in that regard. If there is a deeper meaning than what I have presented I have not heard it.
Anon,
Your perfectly reasonable sounding statement is the bait that hooks people into the lie. The chart is indicative of the founding principle of Reformed theology: knowledge of good and evil. Read the first sentence of book one in the Calvin Institutes. Hence, deeper knowledge of those two things define both (reality) and continually glorify God. But the Scriptures make it clear that God is most glorified by us becoming more like Him and displaying that to the world, not a deeper self-realization of our own potential evil. Moreover, if we aren’t guilty of certain depths of evil, to ascribe ourselves to it is not the truth. Therefore, this is just another primary pillar of biblical metaphysics that Calvinism turns completely upside down. And the implications are chilling: without evil, wisdom cannot be obtained. That is a precedent that has given birth to horrific episodes of evil throughout human history. Obviously, if a deeper knowledge of evil is efficacious to gaining wisdom, evil will not be perceived in a healthy way. I am utterly convinced that this is at the root of indifference to injustice that is so prevalent in Calvinistic circles.
paul
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Which is it a God who picks and chooses those that are His or One who in His great love for man gives him choice to have relationship with Him? Did He not give Lucifer that choice or did He choose to make Satan the agent of evil and therefore is the creator of sin itself? Did He force Adam and Eve to eat from the tree and fall under Satans spell or did He allow them to choose their love? This is where Calvinists end up – they will state that man chooses then turn around teaching the exact opposite. Oh yes, I have heard everything that you have stated to me when I attended a Reformed church. My husband is still trying to cope with the childhood trauma of thinking that God is a determinist god and a fatalistic one as well. I heard in one breath that we should not pray for our wants and needs for they are predestined by God and then state in service that we should pray for those in need. Calvinism is a confusing and despairing doctrine.
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I am done with talking about this because there is no need, for I will never go back into a Calvinist church again.
When Paul went to the Bereans he commended them for searching Scripture then to believing him right off the bat.
This is how I know I am doing the right thing, for if you were speaking of the truth about Calvinism you and others would commend me for looking at Scripture to find out the truth; but , no you and others are trying to defend Calvinism over the searching of Scripture. No matter what any of us say here should be any bother to you, but it clearly shows that you must come on here to defend “something” in my mind that has no defense other then to build up a system of man. For Christ will not reward you for Calvinism, but for defending Scripture.
In this, I am quite confident that, as we have seen in history, there is always a remnant who stand by Scripture over “doctrine”, for Scripture is the doctrine and not Calvinism.
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Trust4himonly,
As you probably already know, TULIP is an acrostic for the five main heads of the Canons of Dort. The doctrines stated there are stated negatively because they are answering the Remonstrance of the Arminians. Though I believe the articles they represent are accurate, I think they are misleading if a person doesn’t understand what they are denying. The “I” in TULIP doen not mean God forces people to do anything, but that he is always successful in executing his decree and applying the redemptive work of Christ.
I am not trying to get you to go back to a Calvinistic church. We are just talking about truth and untruth here. I would delight in a discussion of Scriptural texts in context, and I do commend you for wanting to find answers in the Scriptures alone. One problem I have with many Reformed people is they seem to view their confessions as having almost as much authority as the Scriptures. I find the Confessions very helpful in many places, but they are not my Bible. I don’t ever recall sending anyone to Calvin to learn doctrine.
Additionally, I have not defended Calvinism here. What I have done is tried to correct misstatements about Calvinism. If you were an Arminian, and I saw misstatements of your doctrine, I would try to correct that too. Misstatement is never proper in any debate. It makes no difference who is being maligned.
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When people try to solve crimes, one element of the puzzle is always motive. You might want to ask yourself why anyone who was not simply trying to be faithful to the Word of God would ever teach these doctrines. It certainly isn’t the money. This is usually the #1 suspect. A person can draw far larger crowds with nothingness. Consider Joel Osteen, for example. It certainly isn’t the great sex. It isn’t fame or popularity. It isn’t power. What power can one derive personally from acknowledging, as the apostle Paul did, “So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” This is a statement that needs to be taken seriously. It is “God who gives the growth.” After we have been faithful to sow the gospel seed, who makes it sprout and grow? That is the issue we are discussing
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Sam, I realize the historical view of polity is to make things very formal and institutionalized. It has been a bloody mess. If you notice there is no one size fits all in the NT for polity. Not all the early churches had elders unless you want to argue from silence. Most of the letters were addressed to the WHOLE church which seems strange if what most think is meant by “oversee”. There is no point in going deep with this is you are married to your view.
And I don’t do “points” whether it is Arminian or Calvin. How silly to reduce the things of Christ to a list that proclaims to each side who is in and who is out.. The early Christians were more concerned about living as Christ. When one strives to Holiness,, the points hardly matter.
Prevenient Grace is an Augustinian construct.
Does your belief in free will come from a belief in prevenient grace?
And I am not sure why Barba told me to read Hodge if it does not match her view of what scripture teaches. What other reason would there be?
Are you not able to see the difference in walking in the light and walking in the dark as described in 1 John? What special knowledge do you need for that…it is made quite clear in the rest of the book. I have been told by several Reformed pastors that Hebrews 10:26-31 does not apply today. I can see why. It does not fit the Auggie/Cal filter.
I would never expect Calvin or Augustine to admit or even recognize they were teaching a form of Gnosticism. And I would not expect you, if you are Reformed, to see it, either. Nothing I say will convince you so what is the point? I am still trying to figure out how you can be totally depraved, totally unable and walk in the light. I know it is because you all think Jesus imputed his righteousness to you so it you walk in the light no matter what you do.
. But all that does is make you able to stay depraved and be saved at the same time. It is one reason sin has to be redefined in Calvinistic circles.The fruit of Calvinism is that it is more sinful not to obey your “elder” than it is for the elder to protect child molesters. See, he has “special knowledege” that makes what he does holy. It really becomes a hellhole. And the more the Reformed world props up these charlatans, the more people will start seeing it.
It amazes me that Reisinger can write a book suggesting pastors be deceptive and many in the Reformed world think it is Christlike. That is just one example of the fruit of the current resurgence.
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“I think the terms you mentioned were in use a long time before E, Reisinger. The reason for using other terms was not to hide anything, but to avoid the misunderstanding one sees expressed here. Calvinists, so-called are not followers of Calvin. Spurgeon called it a “nick name.”
Thank you, Sam. This is one of my all time favorities. Calvinists do not follow Calvin. For some strange reason, they cannot shake the name. Perhaps it is because is their foundational ST.
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“Additionally, I have not defended Calvinism here. What I have done is tried to correct misstatements about Calvinism.”
Sam, it is the same thing. Do you have any idea how many times I have heard the same lines from many YRR you have written here? Almost word for word, too. There comes a time when one can start seeing an indoctrination instead of an “education”.
Discussing scripture “in context” is a waste of time with those who have been indoctrinated with the Aug/Cal filter. They declare all does not mean all. They, without realizing it, use the poetry of man talking to God to affirm their beliefs that God predestined those who would be saved before Adam even sinned. And to affirm that NO ONE seeks God. And if you do not agree with that then you are a heretic that does not believe God is Sovereign. I have seen such Christ followers called horrible names from those indoctrinated in the Aug/CAl filter over ONE point of the TULIP. Names such as heretic, Semi Pelalgian, Pelagian, Open Theist, etc, etc,
It is a movement that seeks to marginalize people instead of loving them. it is right out of Lifton’s points: Doctrine over people. And it employs the same methods used in N Korean reeducation camps of loading the language, redefining words and concepts, etc. It is uncanny when one figures it out.
I am so grateful that certain deists declared our independence from the bloody state church. I often wonder if they had Calvin, King James and Cromwell in mind when they did. :o)
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For your last comment- people usually start with good intentions, but then yes money, power, THE NEED FOR GREATER KNOWLEDGE (I put in caps because I feel this is the greater one usually) ends up being the result of many. Having greater knowledge is the ultimate- for with knowledge comes power. Satan tempted Adam and Eve with the access to Gods knowledge. So when someone goes beyond the knowledge of what Scripture plainly tells us we end up with problems. Paul continually spoke to the church about false teachers and false knowledge. The problem with the church age now and in the past is we want MORE. We think there is more to add to Scripture then what is already there in plain sight. All that is needed is for us to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us and give us the truth. So there is NO need for the TULIP to understand Gods Word and it is only ADDING to Scripture.
“So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.” Are you trying to apply this to the fact that Calvinism has been used by God to grow the gospel? Just asking. Because if you are we could all look at many examples of other “doctrines” or cults or religions that have seen quite a bit of growth all in the name of God. Then Mormonism would be a good example.
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“The “I” in TULIP doen not mean God forces people to do anything, but that he is always successful in executing his decree and applying the redemptive work of Christ.”
Sam, Just one more….
The above is a perfect example of how the Calvin filter takes away your ability to think. And how it indoctrinates. You are parroting what you have been taught and if you wanted to think it through you could see that statement is full of cognitive dissonance. The “T” seals that it is cognitive dissonance to view God that way.
The only way it works is to take humans totally out of the equation. And when you do that, you may not realize it, but the Cross was not needed at all. I don’t expect you to get that but I pray one day you will.
What I have found, as with barba, is that most Calvinists start backing away and try to refocus the convo when having discussion outside their bubble. It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to explain Calvinism. And some forget that Calvin simply had his dissenters imprisoned, bannished or burned. Discussion over.
I praise God that is illegal today. But I have no doubt that indoctrination into the Calvinistic filter would mean it would happen again today and many would think they are doing God’s bidding. I can see the starts of it now with the glee over Keys to the kingdom, church discipline that ignores the charlatans, membership covenants, excommunications galore, etc, etc. They are using what legal options they have. And it is getting very ugly out there in Calvinland.
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“If you don’t accept that teachers and pastors are the same things, do you think the teachers are to teach theology”
I do not accept the premise of the question. Let me ask you this….what do you think 1st Century “teachers” or “preachers” were teaching as you read the NT?
Was a “teacher” at the church in Corinth teaching through the Epistle sent to the church at Philippi, for example? It is perfectly ok to use logic and critical thinking when reading the scriptures. Those things are a gift from God.
What were the Bereans reading to test what Paul was teaching?
It was all about Messiah. The OT scriptures were expounded upon to point to Messiah.
The human Jesus was God in the Flesh! His resurrection means something really big. He gave up His Glory to become a lowly dependent baby and poor carpenter. He was perfectly sinless and became the spotless perfect sacrifice for sin. And then, he was resurrected. The real beauty is we can read where Jesus says He will raise Hismelf. In another place, the Holy Spirit raises Him, then another God the Father raises Him! The Triune God! How Glorious.
The TULIP reduces that truth to the vain ramblings of man who wants to rule over others. It reduces Jesus first sermon of “repent and believe” to a bait and switch because people were not really able unless God decreed it before Adam even sinned!
One thing that is sorely missing from the Reformed filter is the Jewishness of Jesus. Were Jews even allowed in Geneva? I know Martin Luther hated them with a passion. And what that means is they read the OT through their anti Jewish lens and taught the NT in the same way. Therefore, they exegeted, their banner verses in Romans with the anti Jewish lens and miss the entire point of Romans!.
But we cannot understand any of it properly “in context” until we get that Jewish lens back on. I do not expect you to understand that but I can tell you, for me, it makes Messiah even MORE Glorious that his love grafted me in because I repent and believe.
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