The Lie
Paul – in my time in the reformed church, I was taught and agreed that through our faith we are saved (justification and salvation done – complete) and we then begin our lifelong journey of sanctification as we learn and grow in our knowledge and faith. When I view the chart I have always interpreted it in the same way that I interpreted my college education – the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. In that same way, the more I know of our father, the more ugly and selfish my sins look to me. I have never been taught any more than that and I believe the chart makes a good point in that regard. If there is a deeper meaning than what I have presented I have not heard it.
Anon,
Your perfectly reasonable sounding statement is the bait that hooks people into the lie. The chart is indicative of the founding principle of Reformed theology: knowledge of good and evil. Read the first sentence of book one in the Calvin Institutes. Hence, deeper knowledge of those two things define both (reality) and continually glorify God. But the Scriptures make it clear that God is most glorified by us becoming more like Him and displaying that to the world, not a deeper self-realization of our own potential evil. Moreover, if we aren’t guilty of certain depths of evil, to ascribe ourselves to it is not the truth. Therefore, this is just another primary pillar of biblical metaphysics that Calvinism turns completely upside down. And the implications are chilling: without evil, wisdom cannot be obtained. That is a precedent that has given birth to horrific episodes of evil throughout human history. Obviously, if a deeper knowledge of evil is efficacious to gaining wisdom, evil will not be perceived in a healthy way. I am utterly convinced that this is at the root of indifference to injustice that is so prevalent in Calvinistic circles.
paul
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch.
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Perhaps the perfectly reasonable sounding statement is perfectly reasonable sounding because it is true. Not everything is a hook or a bait and switch. Perhaps, the person who drew the chart had more in mind than he/she expressed, but the chart, in itself, says what is says–nothing more and nothing less.
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Here is a another metaphor to try and explain this concept that is so misunderstood in the Reformed arena. I learned this from a friend who was in security with the Dept of Treasury. They are schooled and taught what REAL American currency looks like, feels like, etc. It is quite a laborious process. They do not study counterfeits much at all. When they really know the REAL currency, they can detect a fake much quicker. Even very good fakes.
Take that same analogy with the knowledge of good and evil. There is NO end to evil and it’s many varieties and nuances. The most horrible evil is the one that is totally deceptive. It operates as good. We could never see them all in our lifetimes. BUT we can detect them quickly in others and within ourselves when we know the real Jesus Christ and focus on the indwelling Advocate He sent us.
Going deeper with your sin after one has been saved is like making a date with Satan over and over. If saved, you will be convicted of it at some point becasue you are focused on the Holy One and communing with Him.
I have seen so many families and churches split up and be in total havoc over the Reformed doctrines that are fatalistic and keep people in bondage.
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Lydia,
“If saved, you will be convicted of it at some point becasue you are focused on the Holy One and communing with Him.”
To me, that is what the chart is saying. You can read more into it, but it doesn’t say you are to sin more, or even try to feel guilty. It is just the more we understand of God’s holiness, the more we realize we may not be quite as sanctified as we may have once thought we were, and thus, we appreciate God’s saving grace even more. I have trouble finding fault with that.
No one should teach fatalistic doctrines or try to keep people in bondage for any reason. Where the Spirit of The Lord is, there is liberty. I have spent much of my life dealing with Reformed people who were more into Law than grace. I just don’t think it is right to paint everyone who believes what is called Calvinism, in the area of salvation, with the same brush. This is the error that often occurs when one begins to generalize.
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Barba, You are doing what most in the Reformed movement on blogs do. And I know because I have been at this for a long time. You are actually contradicting yourself the more you write. I agree it is more both/and when it comes to these concepts we are discussing. However, Calvinism is “either/or”. As usual when debating outside the Reformed bubble it usually goes exactly as it has gone with you on the threads. You agree with a universal biblical truth but want to spin it for Calvinism. Just like you missed the point of the chart. If I asked you why the resurrection is not getting bigger instead of the cross, you might likely rejoin that we cannot separat the two. Calvinists debate like this all the time. They have to make their doctrine truth and the filter is the only way to do it. The determinist God filter where man has no input at all in salvation. Man is an automan who was chosen before Adam sinned to be saved.
I believe the problem starts easily enough. Calvinists do not believe people are really saved unless they agree they are saved the Calvin way.the God is Sovereign and this means you had no input into any of it at all. And this brings problems with the definition of Justification. A thinking human given brains and ability to reason can live in a synergistic salvation. This is impossible in the Calvin filter. It does not fit. So, progressive justification (called by many other names) is what fits the bill. See, you need special people who are anointed by God to explain it to you. The guru’s both dead and alive ones.
True believers do not have to contemplate and go deeper with their sin. They do not have to “uncover” deep sins. Why? Because they are striving to live a life for and with Christ. The sins have been forgiven. They war with their flesh every day but they have an indwelling advocate. Their focus is on pleasing God. And yes, we CAN please God. They sin less and less as they grow in Holiness. And I do agree that just because someone says they are saved does not mean they are. By their fruit you will know them. A good tree does not produce bad fruit. Perhaps you have not really met that many? They are rare.
Calvinism produces bad fruit. It actually has us following man instead of Christ.
New Creatures in Christ are not making dates to commune with Satan on sin. The problem is the focus. Calvinism is a religion of death. It promotes a determinist god (a short walk to Allah) who controls all molecules (See Sproul, the godfather of Calvinism) so that sin is taught as your natural state of being even after being saved.
It is why I often joke about locking up the silver when the Calvinists are coming over. Sinning is a natural state with them in their total depravity which really means total inability. Unless God forces you to do good, you cannot. And that is scary. In some instances many Calvinists call good evil and evil good. Such as their focus on human authority and holding thekeys to the kingdom. And the horrors the Calvin doctrine brought throughout history from Geneva to South Africa to the Puritans. There is very little Holy Spirit in Calvinism because that teaching breeds too much independence.
Calvinism is the refuge of wolves and lemmings.
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” If I asked you why the resurrection is not getting bigger instead of the cross, you might likely rejoin that we cannot separat the two.”
That isn’t spin; it is just the reality of what I believe. When I speak of the cross, as when the apostle Paul spoke of the cross, I am referring to the good news of Christ’s redeeming work. The resurrection is the application of Jesus’ accomplishments on the cross.
“The determinist God filter where man has no input at all in salvation. Man is an automan who was chosen before Adam sinned to be saved.” by “automan” do you mean automaton? Perhaps you can find a quote from some Calvinist who claims to believe that. I have never known one who did, and I certainly don’t believe that.
I have you several times before to give me a definition of “free will,” and you still haven’t done so. May with some definition we could put some of this foolishness to rest. Much of what you are saying, I agree with, but much of what you are saying is completely contrary to what I actually believe to be true. I know you folks are convinced we Calvinist believe this stuff you attribute to us, but we simply don’t. I happen to be a no spin kind of guy. I am gonna tell you straight up what I believe and what I don’t believe. I, frankly, don’t care very much whether anyone likes it or not, so you can count on me for a straight answer. I’m telling you, I don’t believe half the stuff Paul continues to attribute to us, and I have never known anyone who does.
I am fairly confident you and I will never come to agreement, but I think it would at least be nice if you were disagreeing with what I truly believe and not with what you unfairly attribute to me.
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“am fairly confident you and I will never come to agreement, but I think it would at least be nice if you were disagreeing with what I truly believe and not with what you unfairly attribute to me.
”
Barba, This is how it always ends up: “We do not represent what you believe fairly”
I wish I had a dollar for every time a Reformed, Calvinist, NC, NCT, YRR said that to me.
When the reality is more likely you have not engaged outside your bubble enough to take what you have been taught to believe to it’s logical conclusion to really understand it. So when the logical progression of the determinist god is presented, you recoil and say that is not what I believe. I have come to the conclusion most Calvinists who are not benefitting from the theology in some way of influence, power, etc have simply been indoctrinated. I totally understand this and have a lot of empathy for it.
Calvin took his determinist god sysematic theology to it’s logical conclusion in Geneva. That is illegal now so it is harder to see the cruel outcomes of the determinist god filter. But they are there and examples of them all over what is called Christendom today. Problem is some like you most likely believe they are normal. And that is because you trust mere humans to be the Holy Spirit for you.
There is no point in doing a free will debate. Been down that road a hundred times. Calvinists have attempted to make that heresy except for Adam.
If there is one thing I know after years of dealing with this Calvin resurgence is that is produces hard proud hearts. My goal is to help those who are questioning it or coming out of it. I now try to shy away from those immersed in it. It is futile.
I am convinced that when people know Jesus Christ and know the fruits of the determinist god belief, they will see they are not compatable.
A good place to start is reading history….all sorts of history. Not just the official mongeristic type of history. A real shocker is the current love affair with the Puritans whose leaders came here escaping forms of persecution and went on to be worse than the king’s magistrates. Many like to separate beliefs from behavior but then that sort of makes what one believes as truth, moot.
I am just very sorry the teaching of tyrants is so popular today. It does not bode well for our future. Of course, you believe God has decreed the rise of tyrant cult of personality so that makes debating a waste of time.
You asked me earlier in anothr thread if I had read several authors like Hodge and others. That is exactly my point. Why would I do that in order to know Christ? Today I have even more resources at my fingertips for free to study than those authors did. I have resources to teach myself Koine Greek in this day and time. I have the same Holy Spirit that any other true believer has. As 1 John states we are all given “anointing”. There are no special Christians. (I would be banished or imprisoned for saying that in Calvin’s Geneva or the Puritans America)
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Perhaps someone here can explain to me the points of correspondence between Calvinism and Gnosticism. I have studied both systems and fail to see points of similarity between them.
Thanks,
Barba
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I found the following from a true Gnostic: Sounds a lot like Calvinism. NOT!
BASIC BELIEFS OF A TRUE GNOSTIC
1. The only proper religion for mankind is humanity itself, for it is from this humanity that God first evolved.
2. God is a glorified and exalted human being.
3. It is morally wrong to kill a human in the name of religion, nationalism, or justice, for whenever we kill our fellow man, we strike at the very birthseed of God.
4. Evolution and natural selection are correct principles of creation, and it is through this creative process that God and Heaven came into existence and continues to evolve. All things which are real must of necessity have a beginning. To say that God has no beginning is to say that God is not real. As true Gnostics, we believe that God is very real.
5. This earth upon which we live is the very first from which God evolved. As a consequence, this world is known by those who believe as the World of the First Power.
6. The material world contains within its mortal, physical nature, the very essence and similitude of all things wondrous and eternal. Unlike the false Gnostics of ages past, we do not believe that the material world is evil.
7. The concept of God is represented by two distinct and separate persons, our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother.
8. We are the literal spiritual offspring of God, and have the capacity to become just like our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother if we so choose.
9. The Holy Spirit is no less than the office of the Heavenly Mother, and it is she who inspires and guides us through our mortal life experience.
10. It is holiness, benevolence, and wisdom which define the nature of God, not power, anger, or hate.
11. True worship is the imitation of God’s goodness; it is to imitate the character, disposition, and attitude of our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
12. The Song of God, as written by Azrael Ondi-Ahman, contains the true thoughts and feelings of our Heavenly Parents, and these scriptures are the cornerstone of our faith. As true Gnostics, God has provided us with our own original book of scripture, which scriptures contain the true and living gnosis of our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
13. In order for faith to be real and acceptable to God, then such a faith must always acknowledge the believer’s right to walk away from that faith without any judgment or condemnation from God, or from God’s appointed church. True faith, justified faith, is always about choice; for it is the freedom to choose that makes a faith powerful. It is not correct doctrine which empowers the believer, but rather the freedom to choose, and in the choosing, faith becomes the gift we give ourselves. (*entry added upon Azrael’s request: May 12, 2009)
14. The goal of our faith is exaltation; that by living the sacred principles found in the Song of God, we might become as “only begotten” of our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Furthermore, we believe that exaltation begins with the transformation of the individual, and that with diligent persistence we can achieve the transcendent state, becoming in our daily life the reflection of God’s goodness in the world of mortal men and women. For the true Gnostic, Yeshua is the supreme example of the transcendent state.
15. The historical Yeshua of Nazareth was the archetype of what it means to become as “only begotten” while living the mortal life. It was from the life of this historical person that early Christian scholars created the theological construct called Jesus Christ. As true Gnostics therefore, we do believe in the Galilean and see in him an example worthy of emulation and devotion, but we do not believe in the Jesus Christ found in the Christian faith.
16. We live more than one mortal life. We believe in multiple lives. As a consequence, we do not believe in the resurrection of the mortal body which we currently occupy.
17. The mortal life is a school which provides us the opportunity to:
• Learn about good and evil
• Acquire free agency
• Find the children of God in this mortal life and bring them into fellowship with their
Heavenly Father and Mother
• Pursue the likeness of God through covenants
• Achieve exaltation through the keeping of covenants
18. There is virtue in seeking greater knowledge and in pursuing scientific inquiry for the sole purpose of bettering humankind. However, as true Gnostics, we believe all knowledge and scientific inquiry must have a clear moral objective.
19. The sanctuary of the home is more important to the spiritual life of the family than any church building or temple.
20. The priesthood of God is available to all men and women equally, and the offices of this priesthood are: son/daughter, husband/wife, father/mother, grandfather/grandmother, Patriarch/Matriarch.
21. Sexual expression between loving couples is important to a sense of spiritual fulfillment and well-beingness. And whenever such sexual expressions are rooted in love, respect, and mutual consent, there is no sin. We believe that a healthy sexual lust between loving couples is not evidence of a sinful and degenerate nature, but rather the wholesome expression of one’s eagerness to embrace life, love, and sweet communion. As true Gnostics, we believe that to be truly and fully spiritual, we must be fully sexual.
22. The future of mankind will be exciting, surprising, and wondrous. And although the future, at times, will be filled with challenges, the human family will meet these challenges and overcome them. We will adapt; as a species, we will endure. As true Gnostics, we DO NOT believe that mankind will end in a fiery apocalypse. We are a religion of hope, not doom.
What True Gnostics DO NOT Believe
True Gnostics should not be confused with the false Gnostics of ages past, as represented by the codices and tractates discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945. Neither are we representative of those Gnostics which early church fathers argued against in their efforts to establish a single church orthodoxy with its attendant ecclesiastical authority.
True Gnostics:
• do not believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. True Gnostics are not Christians.
• do not accept or believe in the Bible.
• do not believe in original sin.
• do not believe that mankind is inherently evil.
• do not believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ, because the doctrine of blood atonement presents a God who demands the human sacrifice of an innocent man, and any God who demands murder to appease justice is unworthy of worship or adoration.
• do not believe in hell or final judgment, because the doctrines of hell and eternal torment are immoral beliefs, and the doctrine of final judgment perverts and distorts mercy, compassion and forgiveness.
• do not believe in Jehovah. However, true Gnostics do accept that the biblical Jehovah is a demiurge, an evil monster who would present himself as God in order to confuse mankind with regard to what is truly right and wrong.
• do not believe in a devil which leads people into sin. Humankind has produced enough devils of its own without having to create the fictional variety in order to explain the evil that people do against each other. We are accountable to God for our acts of inhumanity towards each other. There is no devil to bring to account.
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Anon,
I don’t know who you are, just that you’re clueless. The first sentence of book one in the Calvin Institutes is a fundamental tenet of Gnosticism; past that, it takes on many, many, different forms. In your desperation to cling to your Reformed mental toys, you find some form of Gnosticism that describes its elements differently. What is beginning to annoy me is the comments I have seen hear over the past couple of days concerning a denial of this reality when this same blog contains many articles clearly demonstrating the strong Gnostic connections with Reformed theology. In many cases, it’s not even ambiguous: two major Calvinists of our day have “Between Two Worlds” and “Between Two Spheres.” At some point, I am going to have to make a decision about such nonsense because it is a waste of my time.
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Read Plato. Go read about Manichaeism. Augustine incorporated a lot of Hellenistic philosophy into his “Christian” writings and he is the father of what became the founding of the Reformed movement. (Which was really an attempt to reform the Catholic state church) as was simply a “reforming of the Catholic church”)
He is the father of the concept of “original sin” as many believe it today.
And because Augustine’s writings were so prolific he became the defacto foundation for interpreting scripture. And he wrote in Latin and did not even understand Greek. He basically made it up as he went. But because of the time, place and his writings he had a lot of influence. Nevermind he was all for wiping out the Donatists as part of the Catholic church as it was at the time. since they were in N Africa, Augustine won out.
Looking at history from a birds eye view, not long after Augustine’s great influence the church was plunged right into the dark ages where only special people were allowed to even read the scriptures much less teach them.
Basically Augustine institutionalized the gnosticism in Christianity. Many have fought against it throughout history only to be banished, burned, drowned, tortured, etc. And others have taken his concepts and systematized them.
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Right.
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