Can you commit the sin of gluttony and be a true believer? If not, heaven just became a much smaller place.
My point is that all sin grieves the heart of God. Any sin continued in shows us to be unregenerate. I can’t know for sure if anyone is saved or lost. I can only go on present evidence.
I personally think the guy in 1 Cor 5 was a believer who repented later. I think he was the one Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 2: 6-11. I know I can’t prove that, but if it is true, it indicates that we deal with people based on their sin and their repentance. Ultimately, we cannot pass certain judgment. We can only act on the basis of the current condition of the person.
I hope that makes sense. I am getting a little paranoid about posting anything since I have been reading about what “I have written.” When it comes back to me, doesn’t even bear a slight similarity to what I wrote. I think I am beginning to understand why people don’t understand Piper.
I listened to and watched the video. Though I would not agree with his definition of Total Depravity, I do agree with what he said about sin not being completely conquered in the redeemed. TD means that every facet of the human personality has been radically affected by sin so that the unregenerate cannot think right thoughts about God, feel right emotions toward God, make right decisions about God and his truth etc. What Piper said is that unbelievers are always sinning and can’t do anything else. Furthermore, that when we become Christians our sinful propensities are not conquered all at once [my words, not his]. We continue to battle against them, but we continue to fail in some measure. He didn’t say it was all bad, but that even our good is mixed with bad motives etc. As one of the old Puritans put it, “We must often repent of our repentance.” That doesn’t mean we are totally depraved; it just means we have remaining sin we have to grapple with.
He does not say nothing we do is acceptable to God. All he is saying is that our best works are tinctured by remaining sin. Our good works are made acceptable to God through Christ; they are not acceptable because they are without any trace of remaining sin. Anyone who believes he is batting 1000 is deluded. God’s people aren’t glorified yet. But that isn’t total depravity.
There is a statement in Redemption: Accomplished and Applied by John Murray that has been very helpful to me. He wrote, “There must be a constant and increasing appreciation that though sin still remains, it does not have the mastery. There is a total difference between surviving sin and reigning sin, the regenerate in conflict with sin, and the unregenerate complacent to sin. It is one thing for sin to live in us; it is another for us to live in sin. It is one thing for the enemy to occupy the capital; it is another for his defeated hosts to harass the garrisons of the kingdom.”
I listened to and watched the video. Though I would not agree with his definition of Total Depravity, I do agree with what he said about sin not being completely conquered in the redeemed. TD means that every facet of the human personality has been radically affected by sin so that the unregenerate cannot think right thoughts about God, feel right emotions toward God, make right decisions about God and his truth etc. What Piper said is that unbelievers are always sinning and can’t do anything else. Furthermore, that when we become Christians our sinful propensities are not conquered all at once [my words, not his]. We continue to battle against them, but we continue to fail in some measure. He didn’t say it was all bad, but that even our good is mixed with bad motives etc. As one of the old Puritans put it, “We must often repent of our repentance.” That doesn’t mean we are totally depraved; it just means we have remaining sin we have to grapple with.
He does not say nothing we do is acceptable to God. All he is saying is that our best works are tinctured by remaining sin. Our good works are made acceptable to God through Christ; they are not acceptable because they are without any trace of remaining sin. Anyone who believes he is batting 1000 is deluded. God’s people aren’t glorified yet. But that isn’t total depravity.
There is a statement in Redemption: Accomplished and Applied by John Murray that has been very helpful to me. He wrote, “There must be a constant and increasing appreciation that though sin still remains, it does not have the mastery. There is a total difference between surviving sin and reigning sin, the regenerate in conflict with sin, and the unregenerate complacent to sin. It is one thing for sin to live in us; it is another for us to live in sin. It is one thing for the enemy to occupy the capital; it is another for his defeated hosts to harass the garrisons of the kingdom.”
Please understand I am not defending Piper. Since I take a different view of Romans 7, I would not have couched my remarks as he did. All I am saying is that he didn’t say that “as believers” we continue to be totally depraved. Think about it. If the unregenerate are totally depraved and that means THEY CAN’T DO ANYTHING that isn’t sinful. If we can do ANYTHING that is done for the right motive and therefore pleasing to God, even though these actions are not yet perfect as they will be when we are glorified, then we cannot be totally depraved, can we?.
“It seemed to me the what was being discussed on the video was in reference to people who were battling this sin, not people who were enjoying it with relish. I think that is an important distinction.”
He does not say that. again, we have someone interpreting their words for them. And, these men make a living “communicating” the Word.
He said clearly ‘the Gospel message is for those who are perishing and those who are saved’. And the whole point of this clip was made clear that it is very important that it is for both…all the time.In fact, he implied we never leave the cross.
“I personally think the guy in 1 Cor 5 was a believer who repented later”
Huh? Would Paul suggest we turn a “believer” over to Satan “so he can be saved”?
“So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. ”
Randy, I do not get it.
You think this on par with being fat?
Paul is clear we are not to associate with such people (he even provides a list) and makes it clear he is not talking about “world” people but those professing to be believers)
Is all sin sin? Is all sin damning sin? Is gluttony sin? What do you think? I know a lot of fat preachers who preach against the sin of smoking. Thing is the Scripture says nothing about smoking. It does say something about gluttony.
Yes, in radical discipline, we turn people over to Satan in the sense that we put them outside the protection of the local church. He didn’t turn him over for the destruction for the spirit but for the destruction of the flesh.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Lydia,
Can you commit the sin of gluttony and be a true believer? If not, heaven just became a much smaller place.
My point is that all sin grieves the heart of God. Any sin continued in shows us to be unregenerate. I can’t know for sure if anyone is saved or lost. I can only go on present evidence.
I personally think the guy in 1 Cor 5 was a believer who repented later. I think he was the one Paul was talking about in 2 Cor 2: 6-11. I know I can’t prove that, but if it is true, it indicates that we deal with people based on their sin and their repentance. Ultimately, we cannot pass certain judgment. We can only act on the basis of the current condition of the person.
I hope that makes sense. I am getting a little paranoid about posting anything since I have been reading about what “I have written.” When it comes back to me, doesn’t even bear a slight similarity to what I wrote. I think I am beginning to understand why people don’t understand Piper.
Randy
Randy
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Lydia,
Do you think I haven’t read 1 John? That is just a little insulting. Don’t treat me like an idiot, and I won’t treat you like one OK?
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Max,
I listened to and watched the video. Though I would not agree with his definition of Total Depravity, I do agree with what he said about sin not being completely conquered in the redeemed. TD means that every facet of the human personality has been radically affected by sin so that the unregenerate cannot think right thoughts about God, feel right emotions toward God, make right decisions about God and his truth etc. What Piper said is that unbelievers are always sinning and can’t do anything else. Furthermore, that when we become Christians our sinful propensities are not conquered all at once [my words, not his]. We continue to battle against them, but we continue to fail in some measure. He didn’t say it was all bad, but that even our good is mixed with bad motives etc. As one of the old Puritans put it, “We must often repent of our repentance.” That doesn’t mean we are totally depraved; it just means we have remaining sin we have to grapple with.
He does not say nothing we do is acceptable to God. All he is saying is that our best works are tinctured by remaining sin. Our good works are made acceptable to God through Christ; they are not acceptable because they are without any trace of remaining sin. Anyone who believes he is batting 1000 is deluded. God’s people aren’t glorified yet. But that isn’t total depravity.
There is a statement in Redemption: Accomplished and Applied by John Murray that has been very helpful to me. He wrote, “There must be a constant and increasing appreciation that though sin still remains, it does not have the mastery. There is a total difference between surviving sin and reigning sin, the regenerate in conflict with sin, and the unregenerate complacent to sin. It is one thing for sin to live in us; it is another for us to live in sin. It is one thing for the enemy to occupy the capital; it is another for his defeated hosts to harass the garrisons of the kingdom.”
Randy
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Max,
I listened to and watched the video. Though I would not agree with his definition of Total Depravity, I do agree with what he said about sin not being completely conquered in the redeemed. TD means that every facet of the human personality has been radically affected by sin so that the unregenerate cannot think right thoughts about God, feel right emotions toward God, make right decisions about God and his truth etc. What Piper said is that unbelievers are always sinning and can’t do anything else. Furthermore, that when we become Christians our sinful propensities are not conquered all at once [my words, not his]. We continue to battle against them, but we continue to fail in some measure. He didn’t say it was all bad, but that even our good is mixed with bad motives etc. As one of the old Puritans put it, “We must often repent of our repentance.” That doesn’t mean we are totally depraved; it just means we have remaining sin we have to grapple with.
He does not say nothing we do is acceptable to God. All he is saying is that our best works are tinctured by remaining sin. Our good works are made acceptable to God through Christ; they are not acceptable because they are without any trace of remaining sin. Anyone who believes he is batting 1000 is deluded. God’s people aren’t glorified yet. But that isn’t total depravity.
There is a statement in Redemption: Accomplished and Applied by John Murray that has been very helpful to me. He wrote, “There must be a constant and increasing appreciation that though sin still remains, it does not have the mastery. There is a total difference between surviving sin and reigning sin, the regenerate in conflict with sin, and the unregenerate complacent to sin. It is one thing for sin to live in us; it is another for us to live in sin. It is one thing for the enemy to occupy the capital; it is another for his defeated hosts to harass the garrisons of the kingdom.”
Randy
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Lydia,
Please see Murray quote above in post to Max.
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Please understand I am not defending Piper. Since I take a different view of Romans 7, I would not have couched my remarks as he did. All I am saying is that he didn’t say that “as believers” we continue to be totally depraved. Think about it. If the unregenerate are totally depraved and that means THEY CAN’T DO ANYTHING that isn’t sinful. If we can do ANYTHING that is done for the right motive and therefore pleasing to God, even though these actions are not yet perfect as they will be when we are glorified, then we cannot be totally depraved, can we?.
LikeLike
“It seemed to me the what was being discussed on the video was in reference to people who were battling this sin, not people who were enjoying it with relish. I think that is an important distinction.”
He does not say that. again, we have someone interpreting their words for them. And, these men make a living “communicating” the Word.
He said clearly ‘the Gospel message is for those who are perishing and those who are saved’. And the whole point of this clip was made clear that it is very important that it is for both…all the time.In fact, he implied we never leave the cross.
LikeLike
“I personally think the guy in 1 Cor 5 was a believer who repented later”
Huh? Would Paul suggest we turn a “believer” over to Satan “so he can be saved”?
“So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. ”
Randy, I do not get it.
You think this on par with being fat?
Paul is clear we are not to associate with such people (he even provides a list) and makes it clear he is not talking about “world” people but those professing to be believers)
LikeLike
Is all sin sin? Is all sin damning sin? Is gluttony sin? What do you think? I know a lot of fat preachers who preach against the sin of smoking. Thing is the Scripture says nothing about smoking. It does say something about gluttony.
Yes, in radical discipline, we turn people over to Satan in the sense that we put them outside the protection of the local church. He didn’t turn him over for the destruction for the spirit but for the destruction of the flesh.
LikeLike
Lydia,
We may be talking about two different videos. I am not sure.
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