Paul's Passing Thoughts

Matt Chandler: Christians Are “Wicked Sinners” Who Still Need The Gospel

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on September 1, 2011

57 Responses

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  1. Randy Seiver said, on September 2, 2011 at 8:41 PM

    Anyway, there is nothing new about the position he takes on Romans 7. That is a very typical Old Calvinist as well as Arminian view.

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  2. Lydia said, on September 3, 2011 at 12:19 AM

    “Is all sin sin? Is all sin damning sin? Is gluttony sin? What do you think? I know a lot of fat preachers who preach against the sin of smoking. Thing is the Scripture says nothing about smoking. It does say something abou gluttony.”

    Randy, Randy….smoking vs molesting kids?. being fat vs incest?. Seriously, this thinking is why the whole church discipline movement has lost it’s mind. It is a heinous sin to question the pastor but the molester was just experimenting. (sgm)

    I was around employees in many mega churches that thought smoking was so horrible but were plotting to take over someone’s department and spending tithe money like drunken sailors on shore leave. I could never understand it.

    “Yes, in radical discipline, we turn people over to Satan in the sense that we put them outside the protection of the local church. He didn’t turn him over for the destruction for the spirit but for the destruction of the flesh.”

    Protection of the local church? What does that mean? How does the local church “protect people”? I am almost afraid to ask!

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  3. Randy Seiver said, on September 3, 2011 at 12:55 PM

    Lydia,

    The Epistle to the Hebrews says that Shepherds are those who watch for your soul and will give an account for you in the judgment. Discipline of a radical sort, removes people from that umbrella of oversight. No longer is such a person being admonished as a brother by the other members of the church. He is now to be shunned by them.

    I am not saying that some sins are not more grievous than others. For example, it is worse to commit adultery than to lust after a woman. Still, both are damning sin. I must not begin to think that because I am not a child molester or some other kind of pervert, that I cannot be guilty of continuing in some other sort of sin. It is easy to condemn others whose propensities we don’t share while indulging our own propensities.

    I am not simply talking about being fat. I had a problem with my back about a year ago and couldn’t exercise. I was eating very little, but gained about 15 lbs in a short period. There wasn’t a lot I could do about it at that point. When I was able to get back to walking, I lost the weight. Weight isn’t the issue. The issue in gluttony in my view is that we seek to find happiness, contentment, joy, comfort, or whatever in food [or sports, or money, or exercise, or good physical condition etc.] At that point, these things become idols that we have put on God’s throne. We should seek these things from him alone. God’s law demands that we love him supremely. Our greatest sin is not loving him. Someone has said, “It is not about what you are eating, it is about what is eating you.”

    I think that rather than concerning ourselves with the remaining sin in other people’s lives, we need concern ourselves with the remaining sin in our own lives.

    Randy

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  4. Lydia said, on September 3, 2011 at 2:44 PM

    “The Epistle to the Hebrews says that Shepherds are those who watch for your soul and will give an account for you in the judgment”

    This is an illogical reading of that text. You are implying that if I do not obey them then they will be in trouble on J-day. That is silly. It is all about THEM and their spiritual maturity. Not wanting to lord it over but being a model….Leaders in that passage denotes those who have “gone before” and model sanctification. It is not about authority. If it were, what if I had joined Jim Jones’ church out of ignorance. Would I be allowed to leave according to your interpretation of earthly rulers in the Body? Get rid of the concept of human authority in the body. Those are very bad translations. The temple veil was torn in two so that I, a priest, in the Holy Priesthood have access and do not go through earthly priests.

    I also would not be allowed to leave CJ Mahaney’s church, Mark Dever (who is harboring Mahaney right now from his OWN church discipline model), etc.

    So, if they give an account for me (not themselves and how they operated) then they are my earthly “christ” because that obviously implies I am accountable to them, not God.. I think you are enamoured with the headiness of authoritarian rule. One of the biggest problems we have right now is that many who carry the man conferred title of shepherd are actually false teachers.

    Paul commended the Bereans.

    You are propagating the sectarian doctrine of following Apollos, Paul, etc.

    “I think that rather than concerning ourselves with the remaining sin in other people’s lives, we need concern ourselves with the remaining sin in our own lives”

    Nice try, Randy. You are simply trying to twist the focus with a strawman. We were talking about sin in general. Not yours, theirs, ours, etc..

    I think we are done. Thanks for the convo!

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    • pauldohse said, on September 3, 2011 at 6:45 PM

      L, No doubt, those Bereans should be a major focus in our day.

      > —–Original Message—– >

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  5. Randy Seiver said, on September 3, 2011 at 3:26 PM

    Does the text say or does it not say, “They keep watch over you as those who must give an account”?

    I said nothing about authority. I guess you must have trouble with authority. In the South, we used to say, “Hit dog hollers.”

    If you had read my booklet “The Torn Veil” you would have know I believe every believer is a priest. That does really speak to the issue of authority, but that wasn’t our subject in the first place. If you don’t like the concept of authority, that is your problem, not mine. You don’t have a clue what I believe and who I am. Rather than making assumptions, It would have probably been a good thing if you had actually asked me what I believed about these issues.

    It isn’t a straw man. Sin is sin! If you think your sins are OK and other people’s sins aren’t, perhaps you need to spend more time at the foot of the cross.

    Hope you have a nice life,

    Randy

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  6. Lydia said, on September 4, 2011 at 10:40 AM

    ‘ I guess you must have trouble with authority”

    Yes, I do with the way it is taught today.. In the body of Christ, Christ is my “authority” so some mere human. They are not to lord it over as the gentiles do. Are these so called authorities of yours subject to all the same “one anothers” as I am in the Body? The first will be last? We have the best teacher: The Holy Spirit?

    Why not quote some of those many passages instead of focusing on human authority in the Body?

    I would recognize a real elder right away. It would be the most spiritually mature who would be appalled I wanted to follow him or obey him. He would always point to Christ because he is too busy modeling sanctification because it is real in his life. It is quite doubtful he would be a celebrity. Just a lowly servant working the fields for harvest.

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  7. Lydia said, on September 4, 2011 at 10:52 AM

    “Sin is sin! If you think your sins are OK and other people’s sins aren’t, perhaps you need to spend more time at the foot of the cross.”

    here I go…going back on my comment to bow out! but this is too easy….

    Why do you think any of this means I am ok with my own sin? (Rhetorical question because I know the answer)

    The implication of what you are saying is that we cannot mention any other sin than our own? Way to go Randy, does this apply to pastors, too? Pastors preaching on sin should spend more time at the cross. They should never mention. any sin that is not their own sin. So, sinners, in general in the Body, cannot point out people’s sins that are not their own as in not log/speck stuff? Perhaps they have to have special dispensation such as a man conferred title to point out sin ?

    So, I should only think of my own sin ONLY and ignore the molester in the pews because after all, I am a sinner too. (This is what CJ teaches) How far do we take this thinking, Randy? If you want to see the logical outcome of this teaching, then go to sgmsurvivors and read over the last 4 years of blog posts to see where it all ends up.

    Hey, I know! Why not go Osteen all the way and never mention sin at all?

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  8. Randy Seiver said, on September 4, 2011 at 5:34 PM

    Sounds like you have a real problem bowing to authority. Like it or not, God placed men in a position of authority. You are going to have to live with that since it is God’s order. I didn’t write the book.

    Obviously, you don’t ignore the pervert, but that is not really any of your business since you aren’t part of that situation. Let God take care of that. We have enough to take care of in our own situations. And, of course, Pastors are included. Remember, Song of Sol. “They made me Keeper of the Vineyards but my own vineyard I have not kept.” The Pastor’s first responsibility is to care for his own vineyard. I think you know I don’t believe any of the stuff you are proposing. That is the problem with you people. You make all these wild claims when you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about. There is no question that we are to deal with sins within our sphere of influence. If you know of someone who is in danger of becoming duped by this organization, then warn him of what you know to be true. At that point, you have fulfilled your responsibility.

    I just finished listening to Piper on Sanctification and found it very edifying. When I listen to you people I feel like I am in the Devil’s den. Jesus Christ is the advocate of his people. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Which one are you more like. You seem to have an arrogance about you that is really unbecoming. Apart from that, I think I would have really enjoyed discussing issues with you. As it is, I just don’t want to waste any more time.

    Don’t spend any time answering this since I don’t intend to read what you have to say.

    It has been real.

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  9. Lydia said, on September 4, 2011 at 7:48 PM

    “Sounds like you have a real problem bowing to authority. Like it or not, God placed men in a position of authority.

    I don’t get this. You mean they are in “authority” over me no matter what they do or what they teach? I am wondering why God did not just keep the old Levite Priest system. Or why the temple veil was torn in two at all. It sounds safer not to join any church at all. Because, according to you, we are then under the authority of someone no matter what they do or preach. We are stuck because we must obey men. Randy, come on.

    “Sounds like you have a real problem bowing to authority”

    I am to bow to a human in the Body? Sounds like cult of personality to me. Wonder why God gave me the indwelling Holy Spirit since you seem to think I have a human one. As I said earlier that you ignored, an real elder, would be someone spiritually mature. Not seeking celebrity. Lowly servant who would be appalled anyone would dare follow them but would point you to Christ. They would not be seeking followers after themselves. In other words, they would not be a celebrity

    “Obviously, you don’t ignore the pervert, but that is not really any of your business since you aren’t part of that situation. Let God take care of that”

    Then why write the Epistles if God is going to take care of everything. Seems there is a lot of “instruction” of things to DO in the Epistles. God works through His people, in most cases. But this answer follows the pattern of NC thinking.

    “. You make all these wild claims when you clearly don’t have a clue what you are talking about. There is no question that we are to deal with sins within our sphere of influence. If you know of someone who is in danger of becoming duped by this organization, then warn him of what you know to be true. At that point, you have fulfilled your responsibility.”

    So, if you know of false teaching that is not in your local church, then say nothing? But wait! These people make themselves nationally known! They strive to market themselves all over the pace. They DON”T stay in their “local church”.

    “I just finished listening to Piper on Sanctification and found it very edifying. When I listen to you people I feel like I am in the Devil’s den”

    Better stick close to Piper then. I am of Apollos, I am of Paul.

    .” Jesus Christ is the advocate of his people. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Which one are you more like. You seem to have an arrogance about you that is really unbecoming. Apart from that, I think I would have really enjoyed discussing issues with you. As it is, I just don’t want to waste any more time.”

    This is rich! Anytime someone points out questionable teaching it is from Satan! How convenient! Then no one will dare, will they! How clever. (Nevermind one hears this from the charlatans all the time) Jesus Christ does not advocate charlatans. He does not advocate false teaching. Nice try, Randy. Paul warned us that wolves would come from among the elders in Acts 20.

    “Don’t spend any time answering this since I don’t intend to read what you have to say.”

    No problem. :o)

    Randy, you have been straddling the fence in all your comments. One comment you do not believe as these NC guys do and your NCT is different. The next, you defend them with a vengence. You have been totally confusing and could not answer a simple question from Cindy as to what is the Gospel. You went into a rambling response about Sovereignty and no where mentioned the very basics.

    You have been a good representation of the confusion that abounds in this movement. I differ from Paul’s description of NC in a way. I came to the conclusion the Holy Spirit is missing from all of it. It is the piece that is left out. And it colors everything and keeps people following after man, never maturing.

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