A Little Uptight and In the Fight
A visitor of PPT sent me a mp3 link the other day. It was a recording of The Heart of the Matter Programwith Pastor Ralph Ovadal—Ovadal pastors Pilgrims Covenant Church in Madison, Wisconsin.
Let me be clear: after researching these two churches; would I attend / join either? Answer: Yes, I would give up my NASB, Casting Crowns, Mercy Me, Kutless, and Sunday jeans for SANITY. That’s what the present-day Evangelical landscape is right now—pure insanity. Most leaders whom I used to respect have certainly lost their minds. Extremism Light is looking pretty good to me right now.
That aside, the recording is a lengthy and decent evaluation of New Calvinism. In regard to their complaint along with Dr. Peter Masters that New Calvinism is worldly—that’s true by any sane person’s estimation. The pastors reiterate instances of absurd behavior by some of the more well known leaders in the movement. They also talk about well documented, over the top compromise by the who’s who of the Evangelical world, especially John MacArthur Jr. They are obviously not impressed with the stature of men—calling John Piper, “dangerous.”
Moreover, their doctrinal contentions hit the mark. They note the movement’s distortion of justification and sanctification, and Hamilton calls out the movement for being antinomian.
Here is the link:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=1022101212210
paul
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
well, they lost me at KJV only. But a clock that looses 2 minutes a day is still right if you add the right amount of time to it. 🙂
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Tad, In the middle of something–will read yours later as it is lengthy.
PDuggie,
The KJV is still the word of God, plus, we dress-up for weddings and funerals, so why not church? Again, will we trade that for some DISCERNMENT? I certainly would. What’s so great about wearing bluejeans and carrying an NIV into an insane asylum? We are sitting under “Chrsitian Hedonism,” but by golly,at least we’re comfortable!
> —–Original Message—– >
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Paul, great title.
So far as the progress of these Pilgrims, their attempted means of removal of the beam from the eye can leave many with no cornea. By that i mean, the unregenerate need some kind of cultural reference through which to come to the Lord.
The real issue is twofold: (1) Is the Criticism confined to the real problem and (2) is the real problem being addressed at all. As to the first issue, the use of certain forms of music and attempts to reach those in the world through use of of a more mainstream vernacular, trying to relate, serves to draw in those who may not otherwise be able to relate culturally. Those people then get to hear the Word. How many of the lost in the world are hearing the Word using the cultural references of the Puritans? How many? Answer: a tiny fraction of those being drawn by these so-called worldly means.
Jesus taught using cultural referents. Jesus would not be turned off by all CCM. If he can declare all foods clean, ….
As to the second issue (2) is the real problem being addressed at all? It is one thing to see our freedom in Christ to embrace all of what God created if we can use it for good. But would Jesus glorify evil music? No. Would He bring focus to Himself except insofar as He was bringing the message and doings He was commanded to bring by the Father, in order to build His kingdom? Would He tell people they can continue in their sins, or would He tell them the full depths of their sin (heart and outward actions)?
Would He not tell them to repent, to stop, to change their heart and their behavior. He would tell them to do deeds in keeping with that repentance from then on. He would tell them to get busy doing good – selling their possessions, giving to the poor, earning treasure in heaven, and continuing to follow Him. Where would He lead them, but to doing greater and greater works, of greater and greater self-sacrifice for the benefit of others and for the benefit of the Kingdom and His Name. Would He get confused and tell them to cease striving after those things? Would He tell them He will have to do those things for them? No. Instead, He would spur them on to love and good deeds, more and more and more and more and more….
And all of us. What are we doing?
Endless talking, debating, clarifying, decrying, complaining, segregating, separating, and doctrinating (new word without the en, because we are just doing it to ourselves, for ourselves, to please ourselves). I mean really? whether you do the Sabbath day or CCM or call some guy a rock star or cuss from the pulpit or dress like a colonial, what are you gaining in heaven and what are you accomplishing for the kingdom? That is the real issue, … which is the elephant in the room when Piper takes the stage or someone writes a blog or we show up at our Sunday pew.
So what can I say about this post that is specifically about that lengthy, entertaining hour of wet powder?The proper complaint about the leaders of the so-called new calvinist movement is first that they show a lack of godly discernment. But is discernment about restricting all forms of music? These self-styled puritan people have a psycho-social presumptive beam in their brains. They have trouble thinking abstractly and spiritually. In some cases they replace that finely sensitive spiritual discernment with unthinking rules and traditions of men.
Does that mean all rules and traditions are bad? No. It means they are trying to strain at a gnat, but swallow a camel. Why not just limit one’s criticism to what the NC’s are doing that actually makes a difference? They fail to teach people to become like Christ. If Christ wouldn’t play such music, why not? Out of obedience to tradition? Really?
But back to the bad guys: In their efforts to meet people where they are, as Jesus did, are NC’s then going the distance by speaking and acting as Jesus did. Is John Piper or John MacArthur or any on their list demonstrating Christ? On the other hand, who among this contemporary ‘puritan’ crowd is leading the way Jesus would? Better yet, who among those whining about GS, NC or neo-puritans are themselves demonstrating Christ? (including me)
Now it is time to complain about you Paul. You might consider it sanity to get away from the deceptive and ultimately spiritually confused and frustrated teachings some employ, if you hypothetically join the Mayflower colony. But that environs would drive most people nuts. But far more importantly, (since we should be all things to all people and willing to suffer that many would be saved), do these puritanical Baptizers who think they are the sanctification experts really know how to become like Christ? Are they really much more like Christ than John Piper? Really?
Let’s list the character qualities of Christ, and let’s see who is more like Him and who has a better understanding of how to become like Him. I’d do that right here if I thought someone would be more edified than annoyed by my lengthy post.
Finally, you who make a blog career out of the single, simple point that justification is not sanctification, what do you know about becoming like Christ, … reallly?
At the end of the day, it’s how you love the brethren, your kids, your spouse, your friends, co-workers, neighbors, …. But who knows how to define that love? ‘What does that look like?’ Who knows what it takes to do that? Who knows how to purify their heart, spirit, soul and body that they may love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith?
Look, if Pipper, the NC gurus and the new puritans would each teach the true circumcision of the heart (circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter Romans 2:29), the body would follow (both the individual’s and the body of Christ). (but sometimes the body must lead the heart in this, which is why corporeal punishment is such a hit, so to speak).
That’s what’s really wrong with the NC imps. They are all about outreach, and getting excited about God (and apparently them), but they don’t teach us to imitate the Apostle Paul as He imitates Christ’s example, purifying spirit and body after becoming born again, beating his body, making it his slave. But which camp is willing to surrender their body to the flames and at the same time have what true ‘charity’ …?
I haven’t even gotten to their rant about cessation of the gifts, in which their only authority is Hamilton’s research of ‘what the puritans thought about that.’ A. Who cares what the puritans thought unless they were really good at employing something specific in Scripture and B. will the puritans or anyone else be able to see the real problem with an emphasis on the gifts? If they don’t know the problem with some CCM, how can we hope they will know the real problem with improperly focussed emphasis on the gifts?
Oh, how long must He put up with us ….
tw
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Another important note:
There’s a tendency among those who preach against worldliness to not be very good at defining it. Yes, they know how to quote 1 John 2:16: 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
But are they able to use the principles taught there very effectively to make mature believers? Answer: Not if they only teach them to follow their rules and to discern if something matches their rule. People need to learn the principles and through practice come to get good at applying those principles in their situations. Moreover, the Holy Spirit works through the spiritual words and principles in that way. cf. 1 Corinthinans 2:12-14.
Here’s my take on worldliness:
There is worldly wisdom, which is the opposite of spiritual wisdom, the latter being solely from the Word of God and the discernment given us in real time by the Holy Spirit.
The ‘wisdom’ of the world has to do with ways of thinking and entire ideologies which deal with the human attempt for the individual to maximize its pleasure and minimize its pain. Complex structures of thought which look like something other than hedonism function, but in the end, that is what they are all really about. E.g., Buddhism, with its attempts to stop the suffering inherent in this life, is obsessed with the subject. Nirvanna is a state of being beyond the cycle of pain and pleasure and the desires which lead to suffering. Better to feel nothing and be a nullity, right? That’s still hedonistic, dude. God wants us to share in the sufferings of Christ. How unworldly is that?
There are the pleasures of the world, which is anything, though all things created are permissible in the freedom of Christ, which is lusted after or improperly employed, such that it causes me to do sin, to desire what is evil, to be out of control, to be dominated by something other than God, etc. You know John’s verse. eyes, have and does pride of life etc.
There is the world system, which is man’s means and methods to rule himself and others in order to maximize the pleasures of the world, often using worldly wisdom as its tool.
What is inappropriate CCM? It is the kind that glorifies anything (including worldly wisdom) that sets itself up against God and Spiritual wisdom, or which enflames our lusts for the pleasures of the world, or which advances the cause of the world system. Bascially, if it draws us to anything other than God, it is evil and ought not to be used. Because that standard is subjective in individual application, we have had music wars in our churches. So, people have had to either be long in suffering, change their sensibilities, or go elsewhere or expel the immoral believer, etc. Obviously, the puritan clan would be expellers. Their ideological ancestors ‘went elsewhere’ to Plymouth.
Worldliness is a problem, but we must teach true spiritual discernment, not how to follow an arbitrary rule. That’s the point of becoming “full of age” or mature in Hebrews 5:14, where we are admonished to become like “… those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” KJV
Indeed, the worldly or fleshly or carnal but born again believer is still an infant in Christ, and subject to all the deeds, work or fruit of the flesh or sin nature. 1 Cor 3:4; Galatians 5:19- . People like that act as if they are still natural and not regenerate. Beleivers are capable fo that, and prone to it until they mature. The key is that what is worldly is natural, i.e., what you woudl do and follow if you were not regenerate, alive to God and His Spirit and Word.
So, if the music draws us toward pleasing the sin nature as opposed to pleasing the body, then by defn it doesn’t glorify God. If it pleases the body but uplifts the spirit toward God, then it glorifies God. That is the appropriate principle. Then, to suggest that certain instruments are incapable of the latter is stupid. But to suggest that music that sounds like the music of the world is edifying the person and glorifying God is a difficult one. What if we take an old bar room tune and make it a hymn with great, uplifting words? Then what?
Ask this: Why does the kjv use judgement instead of discernment for this verse:
9And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, Philippians 1:9
9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment
And what does that difference mean to one group in the body and another?
tw
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Ok, they pushed my button! That ghetto clothing, ghetto talk, and ghetto rap music is what I hate! We’re seeing much of that around these parts in the mega Bible and Baptist churches. I imagine Rick Warren is behind it somehow. Swimming suits and Hawaiin shirts? In my opinion, Warren knows very little about public worship. Yet people, many worldlings, are flocking to it. Church growth is everything they say, and you are fired if you don’t like it.
Isn’t this a Holy God we worship? Separate from other gods, separate from sinners, righteous, and a consuming fire. Don’t we make Him Holy through our reverence in worship? They approach God so flippantly, makes me wonder if they are ignorant of God. Just try approaching an earthly King or Governor that way, see how he likes it. See whether he thinks it’s respectful and sincere.
Maybe that’s why I go to an “Old Peoples Church.”
Arkansas Bill
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Tad,
“At the end of the day, it’s how you love the brethren, your kids, your spouse, your friends, co-workers, neighbors, …. But who knows how to define that love? ‘What does that look like?’ Who knows what it takes to do that? Who knows how to purify their heart, spirit, soul and body that they may love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith?”
Correct,ditto, but: please exorcise the GS lingo, “What does that look like?” I would feel better to hear, “How do we DO that” since James said that happiness is IN the DOING.” After I get proof of life concerning your nephew, I might need to bring my GS Deprogramming kit with me.
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Tad,
As I have said before, I will keep beating this cow until others pull it out of the barn and expose it. This movement is leaving a trail of destruction in its path.
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Bill,
I have always noted that unbelievers take more comfort in salvation being something radically different if, in fact, it is a salvation.
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Bill,
In other words, I think they know better than Christians at times that they don’t need more of the same.
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Tad,
To your point: discernment ministry can defiantly get one’s life into wacky mode. That’s why I’m thankful for Susan–she definitely keeps an eye on me.
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Bill,
You went a little over on the PPT Righteous Indignation Meter–went SLIGHTLY into the red–so I did a little editing on one of your comments.
love ya brother
paul
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