Paul's Passing Thoughts

A Good Friend Remembered, and Awkward Situations Created by New Calvinist Sectarians

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on July 15, 2013

ppt-jpeg4“Rick was different; there are things about him that I will never forget.”

There is a link immediately following this post that is my story of what brought about PPT and TANC. In that story is a pastor named Rick Wilson. Just two days ago, he died suddenly at age 52. Rick’s role in the drama was mostly positive I think, but I also think he stopped short of what should have been done. Nevertheless, the reality of our 20-plus- year friendship remains. That friendship was a deep one fueled by the fact that Rick was a goodhearted man. The world is not a better place without him.

Rick and I were involved in ministries together that helped people. Some of the ministries we started still exist today; for example, Iron Sharpeners at Clearcreek Chapel. Rick and I were the beginning, meeting every Friday morning at 6:30 am for prayer and Bible study more than 20 years ago. Rick was different; there are things about him that I will never forget.

I will never forget the time that I was helping out at a NANC conference and little ole’ me walked past Rick while he was talking with someone important. Actually, if I remember correctly, it was either Jay Adams or Bill Goode. When Rick saw me walk past, he immediately interrupted the conversation and excitedly stated, “Hey, hey, I gotta talk to this guy, I will catch up to you later.” Need I expound on that any further? Rick not only perceived all people as equal, but that mindset seemed to come naturally to him.

My journey separated Rick and I, but that was probably more to do with me than Rick as I am not sure anybody knows what it would have taken for him to hold a grudge against someone. But after all he was a Reformed guy, and I am not sure how our conversations about Luther and Calvin would have gone. He adored Luther. Yuck.

So, when word of his death came, I immediately assumed that I would not go to the funeral. The place will be swarming with New Calvinists that know who I am and do not send me Christmas cards. But for two days now, memories of our meals together (he always paid), and rich conversations fill my mind. And one memory in particular. His father, a professing Christian, and faithful church member, did something that ended the life of his mother and father both. Rick spoke at the funeral. After talking mostly about his mother, he stated that his father’s action would not wipe away all that his father had done for the Lord in his mind. Rick refused to judge his father by the one action alone and honored his father’s life as a whole. That was Rick. Not charismatic, far from it, but always doing something subtle that built an immovable mountain in the minds of others. Like that day, I never saw him cry once in more than 20 years, but his tears of compassion could always be heard in his words and seen in his eyes.

“Sectarian,” “sect,” “heretic,” and “fractious” are all Bible words used interchangeably to communicate the idea of dividing relationships with false doctrine. Truth unites, untruth divides. Only the one mind of Christ and agreeing in Christ unites. New Calvinism, a return to authentic Reformed doctrine, is a super-sect. Since it sprang forth from the Australian Forum in 1970, it has divided innumerable churches, friendships, families, and marriages. The awkward situations that are created by these divisions are massive. Awkward funerals, awkward graduations, awkward memories, awkward birthday parties, etc.

But you know what? I didn’t do anything wrong—they did. It shouldn’t be awkward for me, it should be awkward for them. What Rick did for me far outweighs how the situation turned out—I will honor his memory and our friendship. And you know what else? I am going to dig up all of those family pictures that are tainted with the memory of what happened and I am going to frame them. Why should those memories be taken from me because of what they did? I didn’t do anything wrong—they did. And don’t give me that load that they aren’t responsible because nobody was perfect in the situation. God doesn’t operate on legal loopholes.

So I will frame the pictures and enjoy them, and Rick is even impacting my life from the grave. No surprise. I suppose a Reformed guy will be doing his funeral and will therefore be reluctant to call Rick a “good man.”

A pity, because he was the best of them.

paul

https://paulspassingthoughts.com/2011/10/19/how-pauls-passing-thoughts-came-about/

SGM’s House of Horrors and the New Calvinist Theocratic Subculture

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on May 16, 2013

ppt-jpeg4The class action law suit brought against SGM has been revised. And with new allegations added, the narrative can now describe SGM as a house of horrors. I will leave the gory details to the Calvinism would be a good thing if not for the Neo-Calvinists crowd and their Reformed versions of the National Enquirer.

In a recent interview, John Piper discussed a few [!] faults that Calvin had; namely, his idea of integrating church and state. Piper then proceeded to propagate the outrageous idea that Reformed Baptists were responsible for reversing that concept. Funny, no matter how many times you read James Madison’s Memorial Remonstrance Against Ecclesiastical Establishments the Reformed Baptists don’t seem to be mentioned. Last year, Piper announced his post-retirement plans to spread “the light” of Calvinism—on location in Geneva as a way of presenting Calvin’s Geneva as a model for the renovation of humanity. If you believe Piper thinks the marriage of Church and state is a bad idea, I have an oceanfront property in Dayton, Ohio I would like to sell you.

CJ Mahaney and company may not think too much of what their pedophile friends have done, but to them, a bigger issue is at hand here: the preservation of their theocratic subculture. Mahaney et al don’t think that they should be subject to civil law. The way they state it: “The church should be free to shepherd their people as they see fit.” And the way they prefer to handle these situations should be evident by now and is directly linked to their Reformed ideology.

I have written on that extensively, and frankly, I am too lazy this morning to rehearse it all. It’s just exhausting: this behavior, though shocking, should not be surprising when their gospel is understood. Calvin and Luther considered the whole concept of Justice to be a joke and part of the “glory story” and not the “cross story.” These are people who function from a total different reality than normative metaphysics. If you believe that you are capable of interpreting your own reality you are living the glory story; if you trust them to interpret your reality for you according to the cross story, you are living in the gospel meta-narrative.

But back to my original point. New Calvinists have simply improvised and built a theocratic subculture. Again, I have written extensively on this and am weary of it. New Calvinist churches are ruled by elder law and have various ways of enforcing that law apart from the state. They would prefer the state, but the likes of James Madison, whom they despise, messed that plan up big-time on this corner of the globe.

Yawn, ugh, let me repeat a few improvisions: in-house security forces; control structure; covenants; church discipline; brainwashing; networking with likeminded government officials willing to operate off the record; etc.

Hence, the New Calvinists see this as an opportunity. If they win this case based on separation of church and state, the implications are staggering. Don’t miss this: that is why the rest of the New Calvinist community is watching this in silent, anxious anticipation. If you think they see this as a bad thing, if you think this puts New Calvinism on the ropes—you are dead wrong—they see this as a grand opportunity to set precedent and further strengthen their theocratic subculture.

paul

2013 TANC Conference Update: Conference Will Explore New Calvinism’s Relationship to Biblical Counseling

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on May 14, 2013

Calvinism’s Platonist Rejection of the Trinity

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on May 7, 2013

conf-logoHow do Calvinists reject the Trinity? Basically, they make God the Father and the Holy Spirit lesser forms of Jesus Christ. Their rejection of the Trinity is based on Plato’s theory of forms. This shouldn’t be any big surprise as one of the forefathers of the Reformation, St. Augustine, was a Plato groupie. My wife Susan will address the Plato/Augustine love affair in significant detail at this year’s TANC conference.

Plato’s basic idea of forms led to the Reformed Emphasis Hermeneutic, also known as the Redemptive Historical Hermeneutic. Plato’s trinity was the good, the true, and the beautiful, and all other forms, or solid matter if you will, are lesser forms of the true form. In one sense, Calvin believed that Jesus Christ brought the two together, but that is a philosophical angle we will not pursue here because other manifestations of this heresy are more plainly and easily seen. Calvinists merely make Jesus Christ the full expression of the good, true, and beautiful while representing the other members of the Trinity as lesser forms.

Hence, Jesus Christ, and His works become the stargate to all understanding of reality. The “gospel” is a term that encompasses the personhood of Christ and His works—this is the gateway to understanding ALL reality. The saving act (singular) of Jesus Christ is not something done in history as part of the Trinity’s plan to reconcile them to mankind, but is the key to understanding all reality. Therefore, many Calvinists refer to the “saving acts” (plural) of Christ and His personhood as keys to understanding. The Bible is therefore 100% about the gospel i.e., the personhood and works of Christ. More on this further along.

This is abundantly evident via the everything Jesus mentality of today’s churchianity. The books, the sermons, and the music are everything Jesus. This is why; it is a Protestant family tradition set on fire by the Neo-Calvinist movement. And it all begins in a galaxy far, far away known as Western philosophy. Calvin notes the following in his Institutes of the Christian Religion:

For this reason Augustine [who he quotes on average every 2.5 pages in the Institutes], treating of the object of faith (De civitate Dei lib. 11 c. 2), elegantly says, “The thing to be known is, whither we are to go, and by what way”; and immediately after infers, that “the surest way to avoid all errors is to know him who is both God and man, It is God we tend, and it is by man we go, and both of these are found only in Christ.

Therefore, supposedly, the “only” sure way to avoid error is to focus on Jesus Christ only, the idea that spiritual reality and physical reality are only seen in Christ notwithstanding. A clearer way to see how this all fleshes out is in the first tenet of New Covenant Theology which is a spinoff of Neo-Calvinism:

New Covenant Theology insists on the priority of Jesus Christ over all things, including history, revelation, and redemption.  New Covenant Theology presumes a Christocentricity to the understanding and meaning of all reality.

Considered to be the foremost authority on Reformed hermeneutics in our day, Graeme Goldsworthy stated the following on page 48 of Gospel-Centered Hermeneutics (InterVarsity Press 2006):

If the story is true, Jesus Christ is the interpretative key to every fact in the universe and, of course, the Bible is one such fact. He is thus the hermeneutic principle that applies first to the Bible as the ground for understanding, and also to the whole of reality.

Calvinism concurs. ALL reality is Chrsitocentricity. The gospel is a stargate to the pure form of the good. Geoffrey Paxton, an Anglican theologian and authority on the Reformation, stated the following on page 41 of The Shaking of Adventism (Baker Book House 1978):

Christ alone means literally Christ alone, and not the believer. And for that matter, it does not even mean any other member of the Trinity!

This statement is both shocking and representative of Reformed trinitarian thinking. Paxton is absolutely right, Solus Christus means just that. Another way of understanding this is via the solar eclipse. This is the most popular example of how Christ must be the gateway to pure understanding. Christ is the Sun, the life-giving rays of light. To let anything obscure that light, no matter what it is—is to deprive ourselves of wisdom and life to that degree. When we let objects, even objects that are factual and true obscure Christ, we are “living in the shadows.” This is the theses of longtime John MacArthur confidant Rick Holland’s book, Uneclipsing The Son. The book is a Platonist/Gnostic treatise that is not even ambiguous. On page 11, Holland writes that the book of James presents Christ as the “rule and standard of all spiritual instruction.” On the same page, Holland asserts that Christ is the “one true God” and then cites five Scripture references that say no such thing.

John MacArthur wrote the Forward to Holland’s book being presently considered, and made these statements:

Rick Holland understands that truth.  This book is an insightful, convicting reminder that no one and nothing other than Christ deserves to be the central theme of the tidings we as Christians proclaim—not only to one another and to the world, but also in the private meditations of our own hearts.

The pastor who makes anything or anyone other than Christ the focus of his message is actually hindering the sanctification of the flock.

No greater subject exists than Jesus Christ–no greater gift can be given than uplifting His glory for another soul to see it  and be changed by it. This book will be a wonderful help to anyone who senses the need to orient one’s life and message properly with a Christ centered focus. It is full of fresh, practical, and memorable spiritual insight that will show you how to remove whatever obstacle is blocking your vision of the Son and allow His light to blind you with joy.

Christ, while praying to the Father, referred to the Bible as “your word” and “your word is truth” (John 17:17). We pray to God the Father, not Christ, and we baptize in the name of all three Trinity members. The Bible is not Chrsitocentric. The Bible has many major themes. The father of our faith looked for “a city built by God.” This contradicts the plain sense of Scripture, which brings me to my next point.

The Redemptive Historical Hermeneutic calls for a contemplation on Christ and His works only, or the gospel, and a logical conclusion drawn from the formation of verbs, nouns, adjectives, prepositions, etc., must be disregarded for a Chrsitocentric conclusion or a “truth” that “shows forth the gospel.” In the aforementioned book, on page 39, Holland has the audacity to make the following statement under the heading “When Bad Grammar Makes Good Theology”: “The rules of grammar are intended to be guardrails for communication. But sometimes they prevent it.” Insinuated is the idea that Christ’s greatness transcends mere grammatical rules, and therefore, one must break those rules to communicate how consumed our life must be with Christ.

A good example of this is a statement by Paul David Tripp on page 27 of How People Change (Punch Press 2006). Tripp acknowledges that the Bible in-fact does state that we should apply biblical commands to our life, but to take that literally, and not in its “Christ-centered gospel context” (p. 26) is to “omit” Christ in our life as “Savior.” Therefore, a literal approach to the Bible harkens to works salvation. The results of this can be seen in this approach to preparing Bible lessons:

At this time, resist the temptation to utilize subsequent passages to validate the meaning or to move out from the immediate context. Remembering that all exegesis must finally be a Christocentric exegesis.

Look for Christ even if He isn’t there directly. It is better to see Christ in a text even if He isn’t, than to miss Him where He is (Biblical Theological Study Center: A Christo-Presuppositional Approach to the Entire Scriptures; Max Strange. Online source: http://goo.gl/5sGjP).

Another authority on the Reformation, Robert Brinsmead, states this perspective concisely:

That which makes the Bible the Bible is the gospel. That which makes the Bible the Word of God is its witness to Christ. When the Spirit bears witness to our hearts of the truth of the Bible, this is an internal witness concerning the truth of the gospel. We need to be apprehended by the Spirit, who lives in the gospel, and then judge all things by that Spirit ­ even the letter of Scripture (Brinsmead, Robert D. ”A Freedom from Biblicism” in The Christian Verdict, Essay 14, 1984. Fallbrook: Verdict Publications. Pgs. 9-14).

In other words, the meaning of Scripture according to the letter [i.e., logical interpretations from the grammatical construction] must be judged by “that Spirit” which “lives in the gospel.” All bets are off concerning any interpretation that seems to be the plain sense of the text.

Moreover, New Calvinists take this concept dangerously close to disparaging God the Father. In the book here cited by Holland, he suggests that Christ saved the world from God. In fact, the heading on page 23 reads, “Saved—From God.” So, apparently, hell is a God the Father sort of thing. On page 43 and following, Holland presents God as “our most pressing problem.” And, “man’s greatest problem is God, God Himself.” And of course, it’s Christ to the rescue, right?

Though few would reject the idea that Christ saved us from God’s wrath, it’s hardly the whole story and promotes the subtle New Calvinist goal of making Christ more significant than God the Father. Holland gives no Scripture references for this concept of Christ saving us from God because there isn’t any. God was just as involved in the salvation solution as Christ was, and Christ is also a God of wrath just as much as the Father is (Rev. 6:16,17 and 19:11-16). This whole concept is a subtle, but dangerous distortion. At the very least, making a strict dichotomy that associates wrath with God and salvation with Christ is ill advised and smacks of Marcionism.

Holland is hardly alone in this approach among New Calvinists. Paul Washer suggested to an audience of European college students that the goodness of God is man’s biggest problem (Online source: http://wp.me/pmd7S-1A3). At any rate, a standalone dichotomy of wrath versus love associated with Christ and the Father that is unqualified,  is a concept that should make Christians very uncomfortable.

Calvinism promotes a Platonist-like distortion of the Trinity. It shouldn’t surprise us as the Plato/Reformed love affair is well documented. New Calvinists in our day even sport ministry subtitles with Platonist themes: “Between Two Worlds,” “Between Two Spheres,” and in regard to Plato believing that pure truth is static, “Truth Unchanging.”

Like all cultic false religions throughout history, they distort and therefore reject the Trinity.

paul

ADDENDUM 

Calvin presented the priority of Christ over the other two Trinity members in the following way as explained by Mark Driscoll associate  Justin Holcomb:

According to Calvin, the object of faith’s knowledge is Jesus Christ. He defines faith by proceeding to the center of a series of concentric circles: God’s existence, God’s power, God’s truthfulness, God’s will “toward us” as revealed in Scripture, and finally Christ. All these circles are implied in faith, but only the last is properly understood as the object of faith. Calvin goes so far as to say that those who say that God is the proper object of faith “rather mislead miserable souls by vain speculation, than direct them to the proper mark” (Institutes III.2.i). Christ as mediator is necessary if humans are to know God. Christ is not set over against God. Rather, Calvin asserts, Christ is the means—the only means—by which we can believe in God (Online source: http://theresurgence.com/2009/07/10/calvin-on-faith-christ-and-his-gospel).

ADDENDUM 

One might consider the ruckus that was created over my suggestion that salvation involves all members of the Trinity and not Christ alone. I think this is telling. The following is a reprint of the controversy on Pastor Joel Taylor’s blog that resulted from some comments I had made on that subject:

5 pt salt .com

JUSTIFICATION IS NOT OF CHRIST ALONE

POSTED BY JOEL TAYLOR ON DECEMBER 15, 2011 IN GENERAL | 24 COMMENTS

I’m not even sure I like the title of this post. Not because it’s not true, but because it’s confusing.

Let me explain.

A few days ago I posted this piece promoting the book by Paul Dohse entitled The Truth About New Calvinism: It’s History, Doctrine, and Character.  It’s worth reading. In fact, I think his book is an important one, and yes, I highly recommend you get it.

But, of course, not everyone feels that way.

Yesterday, after reading that post of mine, one 5ptsalt reader left this comment to me regarding Dohse and his book:

I’m pretty shocked you are promoting this book. Taking a peak inside reveals some pretty far out stuff. Just one example:

“First, justification is not by Christ ALONE. If God didn’t elect Christ, elect the elect, and draw them to Christ, along with sacrificing His only Son, what Christ did would have been for naught. So, justification is not by Christ alone.”

Buyer beware. This is dangerous stuff.

Well brethren, don’t be shocked that I promote this book. Be glad. And for you buyers, no need to beware.

Dohse is Right

Fact is, Paul Dohse is spot on, and even though he doesn’t need me to defend his statements, this reader’s comment gives us the opportunity to look at Scripture and, hopefully, instruct all of us. As Martha Stuart is apt to say, “That’s a good thing.”

See, it’s always important to look at statements in their proper context, a practice often overlooked and disregarded in the heat of defending what one is doctrinally comfortable with. But we need more importantly to examine all things in light of Scripture, it being – yes, I’m saying it again – the final authority in all things.

This comment by Dohse can be found from this post [link] of his which itself is a response to a series of questions by one of his readers. Here’s the question of the reader, followed by Dohse’s response:

Q: You have raised many issues in the last post that would take a book to answer. If I may, I would like to ask a few questions that might help us to clarify the issues on which we disagree. First, I want to state a couple of points on which I think we agree. Incidentally, I am convinced Piper and others would also agree.

…….

2. Justification is based on the work of Christ alone and our works do not contribute to it at all.

…..

Dohse responds to the second point:

2. First, justification is not by Christ ALONE. If God didn’t elect Christ, elect the elect, and draw them to Christ, along with sacrificing His only Son, what Christ did would have been for naught. So, justification is not by Christ alone.

Now, as I said earlier, Dohse is right. In fact, spot on. Here’s why: In a nutshell, it took all three persons of the Trinity to accomplish our justification. Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. If one dogmatically asserts that the Son alone is responsible for our salvation, including our justification, such a statement is clearly, from the Biblical testimony, an error.

Yes, the basis of our justification is the finished work of Christ alone, apart from our own works. That is true. Yet Dohse is merely pointing out the fact that unless the Father had predestined some to salvation, there would be none. The Father sent the Son to redeem us. The Holy Spirit works in us to make us holy. So Dohse is pointing out the involvement of the Trinity in our complete salvation. Although the basis for justification is Christ alone, there would be no justification without the involvement of all three persons of the Trinity in our redemption.

First, let’s give a simple definition of what justification is. Be sure and learn this, I implore you. When this is learned, hopefully, much confusion will be dismissed altogether.

Justification Defined

Justification is a declaration from the throne of God the Father concerning our legal status before His law. It is a single act, occurs one time, is never again repeated and is definitely not a process.

God the Father is the Author and Origin of Our Justification:

since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. – Romans 3:30

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, – Romans 4:5

and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. – Romans 8:30

By the way, who predestination the elect unto salvation? Jesus Christ the Son? No! God the Father predestination us, according to Scripture. You see, it is God the Father who makes the declaration of justification, so to think justification is of Christ alone, well, that is simply not a biblical position.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him – Ephesians 1:3-4

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; – Romans 8:33

When anyone objects to statements like “Justification is not by Christ alone”, I would suggest one needs to pull back, calm down, and search the Scriptures and strive towards of a biblical understanding of precisely what justification is, a declaration from God the Father.

Brethren, I hear far, far, far too much praying for the Holy Spirit to “come down” and manifest Himself. I strongly object to such, and I would encourage pastors, and elders who are allowing such to continue to rethink what they are encouraging.

Listen. The Holy Spirit, third person of the Trinity, points us to Christ, not to Himself, and does not anywhere in Scripture ask us to ask more of Him! (John 16:13, 14).

Listen again, please. Christ Jesus points us to the Father! He is the way to the Father, not just to Himself! John 14:6.

Look at Ephesians 2:18, 19 brethren, and for all you New Calvinists, contemplate this:

for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household

Now, why do so many focus only on the Son? For you to be redeemed, it took the entire Trinity, the triune Godhead, in perfect agreement together regarding a predestined, glorious plan of redemption of those given by the Father to the Son by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Sonship theology, indeed. Paul Dohse is right, because Paul Dohse is listening to God’s written Word, not the latest guru of truth.

Brethren, in love, I ask you not to ignore two members of the Trinity. Christianity is not wearing a Calvinistic t-shirt, boasting of your reformed views, and getting people to contemplate on the Gospel more.

That is utterly absurd. It is ignoring the whole counsel of God. This business of “Gospel sanctification” and Sonship theology is a dangerous – and exceedingly popular movement. And it is a movement that endangers souls.

So get that book, read it, be alert, and learn and be aware of anything and anyone who, in your heart, trumps the Word of God. May we all strive to better acknowledge the final authority of God’s Word, and rest our beliefs on its veracity alone.

24 COMMENTS

JOSHUA

DECEMBER 15, 2011

Did you believe this before Dohse made his statements or did he lead you to this understanding?

REPLY

ELLEN

DECEMBER 15, 2011

What then are we to think about the following scripture, relating to the reasoning in this post? In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word

was God. John 1:1

REPLY

JOEL TAYLOR, PASTOR-TEACHER POST AUTHOR

DECEMBER 15, 2011

You should think that Jesus was in the beginning, eternal, and was with God, with God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, and was/is God Himself, and created all things, and all things are upheld by Him, for Him and through Him.

REPLY

JOE

DECEMBER 15, 2011

I like John 3:16

REPLY

JOHNDUNNINGUK

DECEMBER 15, 2011

I believe that if we are to truly accept the doctrines of grace as being true, we cannot do so sincerely, and yet fail to understand the crucial role that all three Persons of the Godhead play in our salvation.

In covenant theology, there is a sense whereby that which we know as the covenant of grace, flows directly out of an agreement within the Godhead made before creation, known as the counsel of peace, and sometimes as the covenant of redemption.

It was in this coming together of the Godhead to form a plan of creation, redemption and salvation, that each Person of the Godhead took upon their role. (I realise this is a pretty poor description on my part, so please excuse me). Each Person of the Godhead being indispensible to the other, and the faithful work of each Person, utterly vital for the plan of salvation to succeed.

Although I can sort of understand peoples reaction to this post generally, I have to agree that I think it more emotional than intellectual. It is undoubtedly true to say that there is absolutely no sacrifice for sin that is acceptable to God, other than Christ. However it would also be true that without the sovereign election of the Father, giving a people to His Son to redeem through His own blood, His sacrifice would be for nought. And were it not for the Holy Spirit, sealing those who have been chosen and redeemed, acting as the deposit that guaranteed their inheritance in Christ, then none would be brought to glory anyway.

REPLY

MAY

DECEMBER 15, 2011

However it would also be true that without the sovereign election of the Father, giving a people to His Son to redeem through His own blood, His sacrifice would be for nought.

Why would His sacrifice be for nought? The Father knows that some will and some will not believe.

REPLY

JOHNDUNNINGUK

DECEMBER 16, 2011

Why would His sacrifice be for nought? The Father knows that some will and some will not believe.

If you read through John 6:37-44 you will see what I meant more clearly. Christ did not come to the earth to do His own will, but the will of the One who sent Him. Namely the Father.

It is the Father who elects those who are to be saved and gives them to His Son to raise up on the Last Day, and we are told that ALL those who are given by the Father shall come to the Son.

The willingness of Christ to lay down His life to save us as the redeeming price, can only redeem those the Father has given Him to redeem. Therefore without being given a people by His Father, His sacrifice would purchase nothing.

REPLY

TIM SCOTT

DECEMBER 15, 2011

I’m a little confused. I want to ask a clarifying question, just to make sure I have read your article correctly. Aren’t you denying a central tenet of the Reformation? I mean, yes, salvation involves all persons of the Godhead but how was that salvation accomplished? Through Christ right?

REPLY

JOEL TAYLOR, PASTOR-TEACHER POST AUTHOR

DECEMBER 15, 2011

What ‘central tenet’ of the reformation would I be denying? The Father is the one who justifies, according to Scripture.

REPLY

Pingback: God Making His Appeal Through Us. « Kevin Nunez

TIM SCOTT

DECEMBER 15, 2011

Solus Christus

REPLY

JOEL TAYLOR, PASTOR-TEACHER POST AUTHOR

DECEMBER 15, 2011

Tim, the Father elected those who would be saved, and gave them to the Son to be redeemed, which He did at the cross. That is the testimony of Holy Scripture. We must be careful not to make being ‘reformed’ more important than being biblical. Solus Christus is not about the doctrine of justification brother.

REPLY

TIM SCOTT

DECEMBER 15, 2011

Thanks. That is why I was making sure I understood what you were saying. Appreciate your answer bro.

JOHNDUNNINGUK

DECEMBER 16, 2011

It seems to me that this is the result of a sloppy question/statement followed by a precise answer. I’m not saying that to lay blame on anyone, but merely to say that where matters of doctrine are concerned, precision in our language is essential. All the JW’s do is add one little letter “a” to John 1:1 and it turns the whole Gospel on its head!

The statement made was: “2. Justification is based on the work of Christ alone and our works do not contribute to it at all.” To which the response made was bang on. The intent of the statement maybe obvious enough to some, but it is far from being accurate, and may well lead to wrong doctrine developing if left unchallenged.

REPLY

VINCEPLANETTA@GMAIL.COM

DECEMBER 16, 2011

It doesn’t seem to me the statement should be shocking at all (Jam 2:24). I think reformers have placed too much emphasis on “alone” and is so often misleading. Not that it is incorrect but can potentially detract from man’s response and action.

REPLY

GRACEWRITERRANDY

DECEMBER 16, 2011

The real issue is not whether all three persons of the Trinity are involved in the work of salvation, That should go without saying for anyone who has read the Scriptures. The question that I originally asked to Paul Douche concerned the basis of the sinner’s justification before God. Is it the work of Christ alone or is it the work of Christ’s work or Christ’s work plus our obedience. Whether you like it or not, the Father’s work in electing believers was not the basis of our justification; the Spirit’s work in regeneration was not the basis of our justification. Were those works necessary in order to justify us? Of course they were! Were they the basis of our justification? No way! The basis of our justification was the obedience of Christ alone.

REPLY

JOEL TAYLOR, PASTOR-TEACHER POST AUTHOR

DECEMBER 19, 2011

The basis of our justification is the finished work of Christ, absolutely. However, this post never mentions you, nor is it about you. it concerns a comment left on 5ptsalt in regards to PD.

REPLY

GRACEWRITERRANDY

DECEMBER 16, 2011

“Solus Christus is not about the doctrine of justification brother.”

If it is not about justification. what is it about?

REPLY

JOEL TAYLOR, PASTOR-TEACHER POST AUTHOR

DECEMBER 17, 2011

Salvation.

Acts 4:12 – and there is salvation in no other One, for neither is there any other name under Heaven having been given among men by which we must be saved.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

REPLY

GRACEWRITERRANDY

DECEMBER 17, 2011

johndunninguk,

You stated that there is something inaccurate about the statement I made. I would be interested in knowing what part of that statement you find sloppy. Do you think it is inaccurate to say that God’s declaration is based on [not by] Christ’s finished work alone or do you think it is inaccurate to state that our works do not contribute to justification at all? If it is not based on Christ’s finished work, on what basis do you think an absolutely holy God could declare sinners righteous and remain righteous himself?

REPLY

JOHNDUNNINGUK

DECEMBER 17, 2011

Hello Andy,

Firstly I do fully believe that our justification is based upon the finished work of Christ on our behalf. I also believe that the very reason that God is willing to justify sinners, can only be because by faith we have accepted and put our trust in the only acceptable sacrifice that can be made for our sins, and that is the One who God sent as that sacrifice. Our own works have nothing to do with it, apart from maybe fighting against the process.

The thing I disagree with is your initial statement “Justification is based on the work of Christ alone”, which is not fully true. Our justification can only come through repentance and faith, both of which I would consider the works of Father and Holy Spirit, as opposed to Christ Himself.

I only object because unless we are elected by the Father, given the gift of faith and drawn by Him, and regenerated and convicted of our sin by the Holy Spirit; then the completed works of Christ alone do not justify us at all. To believe otherwise leaves pitfalls such as universalism wide open for us to fall into.

God bless you, and please excuse me if I have come across harsh in any way. John.

REPLY

GRACEWRITERRANDY

DECEMBER 17, 2011

John,

Thanks for your reply. I don’t think we disagree re: the statement I made. It seems our only areas of disagreement have to do with the difference between the basis of justification and how justification is received. Justification is clearly THROUGH faith which includes repentance, but we are never told that justification is BASED ON, that is on account of or because of the sinner’s faith.

It is important that we distinguish between redemption planned, redemption accomplished and redemption applied. Although the Father and the Spirit were both involved in the offering up of Christ’s obedience unto death, it was his obedience that formed the basis upon which the Father declares us righteous in his sight. It is his righteousness that is put to our account and forms the basis for the Father’s declaration that we are righteous before him. The Father’s primary work in the process of redemption occurred in the area of redemption purposed or planned. He is also involved in the application phase, i.e., effectual calling. The Spirit’s primary work occurs in the application phase. As essential as these works of the Father and the Spirit are, none of those activities on their part form the judicial basis upon which God justifies sinners.

Randy

GRACEWRITERRANDY

DECEMBER 17, 2011

John,

One additional thought. Part of Christ’s redemptive work is reconciliation that not only effects the putting away of the Father’s holy wrath toward the elect, but also guarantees the putting away of our unholy hostility toward God. It is this redemptive accomplishment that the Spirit applies to the elect in regeneration. If we are believers, we have now received the reconciliation (Rom. 5:11) that Jesus accomplished objectively on the cross. That is, Jesus’ accomplishment has now been applied.

Randy

A Reply to a Former Member and Present Members at Clearcreek Chapel in Springboro, Ohio: You Don’t Define Me

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on March 28, 2013

ppt-jpeg4I love you Paul, but have been saddened for some time regarding the dearth of gentleness and truth in your blog,etc. Deep down you know that it is true. Turning logic on its head, twisting words, pseudo-scholarship, and outright attacking people for things that both you and I know they do not believe does no one any good. Please, this is not an invitation to debate. To reason together would be good, but I fear that is not your true motive. Praying for you and remembering our service together.

Mark,

Sorry, I no longer allow others to dictate the language and thereby frame the context of debate for a desired outcome. The arrogance of your presuppositions concerning me and anyone else who disagrees with those you follow is astounding. Telling me what “I know” deep down is indicative of this. You know what I know deep down? Really?

You, as well as others at Clearcreek Chapel misunderstand me totally. I am thankful for what happened. I thought I served with people who could think for themselves. I also thought I was among those who would stand up for me at all cost. I could still be there under such an illusion. Frankly, that’s pretty scary.

You, as well as them, claim to know and love truth, but you stood by and watched them ravage my family because I questioned their doctrine. The Clearcreek parishioners are the ones that know this; for anyone who was there, it is more than obvious that the trouble started when I asked questions in that disastrous Sunday School series that should have stripped the Clearcreek elders of all credibility.

First, per Terri Engle, and others, the Clearcreek elders handed core members manuscripts of said doctrine that they (core members) didn’t understand and had them dictate it in Sunday School classes to lend creditably to their doctrine. If you are dealing with truth, you don’t need to do that. Secondly on that point, it’s deceptive because the class assumes the teacher understands the material. Other than the fact that it was obvious what was going on, Terri Engle is a liar if he denies that he personally informed me of this. This alone speaks to the spiritual integrity of the Clearcreek elders.

When this ploy crashed and burned, core members were replaced with elders. When that crashed and burned because they could not answer the hard questions (not only from me), all the Sunday School classes were combined and the big gun was brought in, Russ Kennedy. That lasted for 2 classes. It was a disaster. That is when the Clearcreek elders started coming to my house unannounced, in groups, for shock and awe effect. Prior to that, I was called into a meeting with Mark Schindler and Devon Berry in which nothing about my personal life was of any concern. They requested that I not ask Greg Simmons questions in Sunday School classes. He was dissing Dispensationalism and didn’t even know what the word meant as he was dictating the manuscript handed him by the elders.

I will not much rehearse the fact that I left the Chapel rightfully, and according to Scripture. That is well documented. I will not rehearse the fact that Shirley denied all of the accusations against me by the elders under sworn testimony to PJ’s guardian ad litem. That is well documented. I will not rehearse the fact the elders coerced me into coming back to the Chapel by threatening to ruin my name, and held me hostage there for four months. I will not rehearse the FACT that while I was under discipline Chapel members were living in open sin and the elders knew. I have the documentation. Would you like to see the email from one who represented those who felt guilty about it?

Moreover, the Chapel was recently embroiled in another controversy concerning accusations that they were teaching, according to Dale Evans from the Chapel pulpit, “some kind of mysticism.” Go figure. Another series to answer for their questionable doctrine colliding with those left at the Chapel who still have a conscience for the truth. I assume the detractors were disposed of in the usual way.

Let me inform you, Mark, and the Clearcreek crowd about who I really am. I am a man who was seeking truth and found it in Jesus Christ. I came as a man who remembers the divorce of my parents when I was 9 years old like it was yesterday. When they told my brother and me, I remember what time it was. I remember the furniture we were sitting on. I remember what we had for dinner. I remember crying myself to sleep. That and the pain/sin of my former life altogether set my heart on fire in regard to being set free by Jesus Christ and His truth. I love that truth, and I will sit with it alone in the wilderness if I have to.

Now let me tell you who you are as well as anyone I ever knew at the Chapel. None of you are my friends and none of you love me. That’s a bunch of baloney. Please don’t insult my sensibilities. You are ones that Satan used to drive a spear through my heart in a way that could most wound me. You are all cowardly, mindless followers of men. You stand with the Clearcreek elders though they are guilty as hell in what they have done. They have devastated many families over a false doctrine and their judgment from God slumbers not. And if those who support them in ANY WAY think they do not share in their sin—they, and you, are sadly mistaken.

The Clearcreek elders sought to do evil to me by what they did, but God meant it for good. My new wife is a woman of astounding integrity with a mind of her own. She holds a Masters degree in education, and her faith has been severely tested and has emerged from the fire intact. Though she thinks my approach is harsh at times and I have greatly improved there by her counsel, she has deeply investigated my ministry theses and is of one mind with me.

Therefore, your accusation is against both of us and you owe us both a request for forgiveness accordingly. And by the way, you couldn’t even begin to carry water for her. She can think for herself, and you can bet that I didn’t marry someone who can’t after what I have been through.

This is who I am: before Russ Kennedy came back to the Chapel and assumed eldership under false pretense, I publically rebuked the congregation for falsely accusing him after his first departure. And I would have stood with him on that wise at any cost. That’s who I am. Don’t confuse that with who you are and what you call, “love,” and for that matter, “friendship.”

Anybody who stands against the tyranny of the Chapel elders is expendable. The Clearcreek definition of love is the following: those who follow them without question are worthy of it.

You don’t define me. If only there were words for how little I value your venquilitrist wisdom.

Paul Dohse