Paul's Passing Thoughts

The Disaster of Sacrifice as the Ultimate Moral Standard – Part 4

Posted in Uncategorized by Andy Young, PPT contributing editor on July 22, 2017

The following is the final part of a four-part series.
Taken from John Immel’s fourth session at the 2016 Conference on Gospel Discernment and Spiritual Tyranny
~ Edited by Andy Young

Click here for part oneClick here for part twoClick here for part three
(Links to the archived files are found below)


What we have seen over the course of the last 3 sessions is that the oldest of all worldly ideas is that man is effectively a sacrificial animal. The primary intellectual shapers of modern Christianity as we have seen have their roots deep in Platonism, the metastasized version of Platonism found in Augustine, and then the further metastasization in Calvin. The secular iteration of that is Immanuel Kant who put the final nails in the coffin of any self-interest at any point at any time, and he did it such that even secular people could arrive at the exact same conclusion.

Now this becomes very important in the modern age. I opened this whole series talking about how in America we are facing a new Dark Age. The reason that sacrifice is so central to tyranny is directly related to this observation:

The Gospel According to John Immel, chapter 3:1-3

  1. All people act logically from their assumptions.
  2. It does not matter how inconsistent the ideas or insane the rationale. They will act until that logic is fulfilled.
  3. Therefore, when you see masses of people taking the same destructive actions, if you find the assumptions, you will find the cause.

Consider once again the five pillars of tyranny. (slide 2) All tyrannies use some variation of these arguments.  This is why altruism is so central to tyranny. Notice how the branches of all of these sub-arguments are tied to altruism.

Incompetent Masses – How many times have you heard the preacher say, “No man is an island”? What he really means is that no man in my church has the right to his own ideas. He is demanding that you abandon your own rational judgment.

Dictated Good – The preacher says, “We believe in servant-leadership.” What he really means is, “My qualification for being in charge is telling you what to think.” He believes that his judgment is “the good” and it is his right to tell you what that good is.

Universal Guilt – “You are proud.” What the preacher really means is, “You are morally corrupt. You are taking part in humanity’s original sin. You are displaying Adam’s heritage.” What they are really saying is since you are universally guilty you can’t get away from Adam’s original sin.

Collective Conformity – “You are rebellious,” says the preacher, but what he really means is, “I have the moral right to dictate the content of your life. You have no moral right to resist my authority.” Rebellion is an appeal to political power. Any time someone says you are rebellious, what they are really saying is that you are defying my government right. He is compelling you to collectively conform.

Abolition of Ambition – “You are arrogant,” the preacher says, but what he really means is, “I don’t like your confidence. You have no business being confident because you really have no ability.”

So you can begin to see how this altruism, self-sacrifice, man as a sacrificial animal ties all of this together. This is why this is so fantastically destructive.

Here is in broad terms how collectivism cascades down to the smallest subset. Any time you see someone making an appeal to the “greater good” what they are doing is appealing to the moral standard of altruism to ultimately drive individuals into one of these subsets. Collectivism in the broadest terms encompasses statism. In other words, as an individual your first moral requirement is to the state. The society is a subset of the state depending on common cultural expectations. The tribe is effectively genetic commonality and the political code derived from that. Community encompasses things such as denominations, sects, or the local Calvinist tyrant.

Here is the problem. How can you resist any monstrosity that compels you into any of these things if you must sacrifice your judgment? Under the premise of self-sacrifice, on what moral grounds can you resist government? By what moral standard can you say, “I disagree?” There is none!


Sacrifice is destroying America!

Sacrifice is destroying a free society at its root.
The political leader stands up and says, “Muslims have the right to come to the United States, keep their ideology, and that ideology vows the destruction of America as such.” How can you object?

This is obviously a rhetorical question, because the answer is you can’t. To demand security is to be “selfish”. To demand your own self-interest is to be “selfish”…and therefore morally disqualified. The only moral standard is to sacrifice your security, and consequences be damned. As a committed altruist, you must destroy your values, your goals, your ambitions, your contentment, your LIFE! You have no other choice but to stand idly by, mute in the face of all ideological monstrosity and allow the invasion of your country.

Sacrifice corrupts government.
When it is morally correct to demand sacrifice, it becomes socially correct to compel people to sacrifice. The federal register is filling up with laws that are aimed specifically at compelling people to sacrifice for the “greater good.” For example, Obamacare. It is not about healthcare. It has nothing to do with getting people to a doctor. Obamacare is little more than the government committing armed robbery in the name of morality. Obamacare is a systematic seizing of money from the healthy merely because they are healthy.

At the moment we are a nation stymied by the charge of “selfishness.” In the political sphere, the greatest criticism that anyone can render is that you are selfish. It is effective because it is immediately disqualifying. It doesn’t matter what you are advocating. It doesn’t matter if it’s a better policy. The moment somebody tags with, “you’re selfish,” the discussion is over.

Free people are being browbeat into accepting any treatment, any hostility, any destruction, and any exploitation all in the name of self-sacrifice.

Sacrifice destroys the meaning of words.
Listen to just about any sportscast and you will hear an announcer praise an athlete for his great “unselfish” play. For example, if LeBron James has an opportunity to go for a basket and instead passes the ball to a teammate he is being “unselfish”.

LeBron James

That is objectively ridiculous. LeBron James is probably, next to Michael Jordan, one of the greatest players to ever play the game and one of the most prolific scorers. When LeBron James avoids scoring a basket he is actually penalizing his team because statistically speaking, the ball will probably go through the hoop. It is not unselfishness that’s at issue. It is a failure of conceptual understanding. It is rationally correct for the best scorers to consistently try to score.   So attributing a pass to “unselfishness” is a corruption of words.

But in our culture everything has become an issue of sacrifice. Listen to how often individual actions are being defined as sacrifices. Listen to how often we as a nation qualify our positions with, “I don’t get anything out of this.” Listen to how many times you hear the words, “give back”. Listen to how many times the word sacrifice appears near the word community.

Sacrifice destroys achievement.
Achievement is the product of individuals pursuing their own goals, persevering through obstacles, thinking through the flaws to overcome all challenges and finally arrive at a destination, outcome, or final product. Achievement is the long process of man pursuing values over time, making choices about alternatives in a particular succession until finally refined into the desired outcome. This is why productivity and perseverance are virtues.

Charles Kettering

This process I just described brought about the Write brothers’ first flight, Nikola Tesla’s three-phase electric power, his induction motor, his alternating current, and many, many more achievements. It brought about Charles Kettering’s electric starter motor, car lights, leaded gasoline, and advancements in air conditioning among many achievements.

And yet most people, if they know of these achievements at all, trivialize the achievements because unless these men gave away their money they cannot be moral. By contrast, people will venerate Mother Theresa for her vows of poverty while dismissing the fact that her life of sacrificial giving is only possible because someone achieved air flight, induction motors, electric car starters, advancement in air conditioning, and many more achievements.

Mother Theresa can’t feed anyone…EVER…because Mother Theresa doesn’t create anything.

On the other hand, the farmer had to achieve growing a crop. The trucking company had to achieve getting the food from the farm to someone who would process the raw goods into consumable products. Shipping companies had to achieve the creation of ocean-traveling boats. A thousands achievements from a thousand people pursuing their own values had to occur before Mother Theresa could ever pat someone on the hand and give away food she never aspired to create. Yet her vows of poverty, her “sacrifice”, is held up as the moral ideal.

“Welcome to McDonald’s, may I have your submission, please?”

In a world of achievement where achievement is a virtue, the Mother Theresas of the world, the men and women who live off the abilities of others, would be seen for what they are; freeloading slackers.

This is true of all Calvinist preachers living off the public dole. The only way they make a mortgage payment, or feed their kids, or even buy their first John Piper book is because the people in the pews create real achievements six days out of seven.

You people out there still attending those Calvinist churches, if you ever figure out that the men behind the Plexiglas podium have no right to your money, most of the preachers will starve to death because they aren’t qualified for a job at McDonald’s. You can’t run a McDonald’s chanting, “Submit to authority.” That is the sum of their managerial skills. But I will say that in an achievement-based society, the John Pipers and Kevin DeYoungs of the world (et al) would do a lot less damage if they were limited to saying, “would you like fries with that?”

Sacrifice destroys marriages.
Sacrifice gives Calvinist thugs the moral power to perpetrate their tyranny.

I want to talk about these two together because they go hand in hand. Most people encounter Calvinist thuggery in the middle of a marriage problem. You have serious problems in your marriage and you go to the pastor in an effort to try and get some help. You get to the pastor and the next thing you realize is that you’re “proud”, you’re “arrogant”, and you’re not “sacrificing”. That is almost the universal response.

Then you make the mistake of assuming that your opinion matters on the subject. And the more you decide to defend yourself they more they are convinced of your pride and arrogance.   The truth of the matter is by the time you get to counseling, your marriage is probably already over because the underlying problems have already run their course.

Why do Christians get married? The unromantic answer is, sex. However, once the sex thing begins to ebb and flow and they get past the emotion of it, people finally figure out that sex drive and libido is directly tied to your own sense of self-worth and personal values. The problem is that you’ve been going to a church now for however long that tells you that you can have no value. It’s a death spiral from the outset.

Here is what the ideal would look like. You look in a mirror and you choose four or five things that you really value about who you are. It doesn’t matter what they are. Everyone has their own set of things that they value about themselves. These are your highest values and aspirations. Then when you come to another person and you see those values reflected back in your face it is almost impossible to resist the attraction because you see yourself reflected back. And you know as well as I do that the greatest relationships that you have ever observed happen as a result of having the greatest number of values reflected back.

But here is the problem. You came to the marriage relationship in Christianity believing that sacrifice was the highest ideal, but you have no relationship because you have no values to share. You have nothing in common. Then you have been sitting in the pew for who knows how long, and now you have an endless negotiation on who has sacrificed the most.

The problem is that what you sacrifice is an individual value. The other person in the relationship doesn’t care whether you destroy it or not. All your time in the relationship is spent giving up more and more until eventually you have nothing left. This is why so many marriages, after about 20 years or so of this kind of a relationship, one of the partners finally says, “I’m dead. I have nothing left for you.” The internal emotional pain is so great that they really are dying. But is it any wonder. You have been doing exactly what you have been taught. You have been slowly killing yourself.

Now because of Calvin and Kant, pain has been elevated to a moral primary. But the reality is that pain is a signal that something is wrong. Pain is your signal that there is a problem, and the goal is to get rid of the pain.

At the root of this is an absolute sense of the moral right of your own existence. This is what you can never have in a Calvinist church. This is why Calvinism destroys marriages because it undermines at the root the very people that are involved in the marriage.

As for friends, and this is something that I think really trips people up, you have known some of these people for years and years. Suddenly you are in the middle of what you consider to be a fight for your life and you go to your friends, and you realize that now you don’t have any friends. This is salt on open wounds, because you’re confused. You really honestly believed that these people had your back. No, they would sell you out in a minute for pastoral approval. Now you are stuck because you have so atrophied your sense of self and achievement that you cannot project into the future your own existence. That is probably one of the loneliest places to be in the world.

But I’m going to tell you the truth; you have no one to blame but yourself. You let somebody tell you that your existence was contingent on the approval of other people.

I’m going to cite an excerpt from my book, Blight in the Vineyard. This is from the chapter “Interpersonal Train Wreck”.

Now pause and digest the system dynamic I just laid out in detail and take inventory of the cause of your emotional upheaval. This is why you feel so utterly betrayed and so deeply wounded. This is why you ache with despair that will not go away. You offered the sum of self, and people presumed the moral right to accept or reject the deepest parts of you and call their actions “spiritual.”  They spent your relationship like dollar bills in the pastoral g-string on a private authority lap dance.

No one can sustain this kind of utter personal rejection. No one can sustain others using unearned intimacy to fill out their Christian authenticity balance sheet. So when you rightly complained about the mistreatment, they were brazen in defense, “Forgive me IF I sinned against you, but since I am the authority in this interaction, I can say this conflict really exists because YOU are the problem.”

Sacrifice is the fulcrum of this control.

Here’s the real meaning of the doctrine of self-sacrifice: You are not entitled to your mind, you are not entitled to your ideas, you are not entitled to your own aspirations, goals, or desires. If self-sacrifice is your moral standard, how can you object to any idea? The fact is you have forfeited your right to any personal opinion. You have no moral right to resist the preacher, no matter how atrocious, how grotesque his demands.

Forget the pastoral fictional monopoly on sound doctrine. Forget that they have any authority to dictate any outcome. The minute someone committed to reformed theology say the words, “I think…”, they are disqualified. Your impotence does not come from their authority. You impotence comes from the fact that you don’t value your own existence. If you don’t think that it is morally correct to defend you, then why on earth would anyone else defend you?

This is why most of you have such a terrible time escaping the church that is destroying your soul.

One thing you need to understand, the one thing that men who are committed to authority can never tolerate is the appearance of any dissention. So the only thing they can do is to make effort to segregate you from everything else.

So how do we escape the coming Dark Age? 

It is often said that men will not sacrifice, but as we have seen, sacrifice as the highest moral standard is in human history. We have seen throughout human history that men will sacrifice endlessly. We have seen that men will suffer enormous pains in the name of sacrifice. In National Socialist Germany the German people sacrificed their minds, their time, their production, and their existence to the state.

Indeed the problem of human existence is not the willingness to sacrifice. History proves over and over that men will abundantly sacrifice. What men will not do is stand against the moral monstrosity of sacrifice.

Hanna Arendt

After World War II, Hanna Arendt dug into the roots of tyranny and totalitarian regimes and wrote a lot about the subject.

And just as the law in civilized countries assumes that the voice of conscience tells everybody, “Thou shalt not kill,” even though man’s natural desires and inclinations may at times be murderous, so the law of Hitler’s land demanded that the voice of conscience tell everybody, “Thou shalt kill,” although the organizers of the massacres knew full well that murder is against the normal desires and inclinations of most people. Evil in the Third Reich had lost the quality by which most people recognize it – the quality of temptation. Many Germans and many Nazis, probably an overwhelming majority of them, must have been tempted not to murder, not to rob, not to let their neighbors go off to their doom (for that the Jews were transported to their doom they knew, of course, even though many of them may not have known the gruesome details), and not to become accomplices in these crimes by benefiting from them. But, God knows, they had learned how to resist temptation.

         Hanna Arendt, Eichmann if Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, 1963

And this is exactly what we see playing out in the church- church leaders perpetrating all manner of evil, and the congregation sitting idly by resisting the temptation to object. And what the church does in their buildings is a harbinger of what is to come in American culture. Christians like the idea that America is a “Christian nation”. That’s a problem, because historically, Christian nations have let the blood flow deep and thick in the name of sacrifice.

There has always been an uneasy relationship between the church and the Constitution. Christians love to claim the Constitution when it serves the purpose of religious freedom, but they reject the root constitutional premise. The Constitution presumes that man is an end in himself. The sole purpose of government is to defend the individual in the pursuit of his life, his liberty, and his happiness.

The American Constitution has an implied moral standard: that individual men are entitled to their own lives. Individual men dispose of their lives for their own sake and for their own pleasures. But dare to suggest that man is an end to himself and church people will start chanting “SACRIFICE, SACRIFICE, SACRIFICE!” with all the fervor of the Thuggee cult just before the high priest strangles the latest offering to Kali.

Gospel According to John Immel 7:17
”Sacrifice as the highest moral ideal is the lynch pin of the coming Protestant Dark Age.”

America was the freest, happiest, most prosperous nation in the world because it led the world in individualism. America stands at a precipice. Behind us is the excellent history of liberty, individualism, freedom, values, success, and prosperity. The cliff in front of us falls off into the abyss of sacrifice and injustice and bloodshed and destruction.

Americans are now turning their liberties and freedoms over to the primordial disaster of sacrifice. This does not bode well. Every nation that has walked this path has willingly walked lockstep behind a dictator into mass destruction.

America, if you want to escape the coming Dark Age, be the first people in history to find the courage to resist the temptation of sacrifice.

~ John

John Immel 2016 Session 4 Archive Video (YouTube) Audio Only (mp3)

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20 Responses

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  1. John said, on July 22, 2017 at 2:53 PM

    Maybe off topic; I don’t know. But if people, wherever they are in the world, realize that ten is more than one and has more power than one, then they can override and get rid of the MICE preacher who says,”You shall not press charges against the one who has raped your daughter . . . because I say so.”

    To hell with them.

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  2. Susan said, on July 22, 2017 at 5:57 PM

    It isn’t just about “sacrifice.” The flip side of “sacrifice” is “entitlement.” So …. we have seniors in my community who are howling, “How dare anyone question the new transit system and how much it costs vs. how many are riding it to understand that a senior is paying a $1 fare but that ride is costing the taxpayers $136 dollars for a trip to the grocery store or to the MD office.” The seniors are screaming, “How can you be so cruel and so heartless to say that it doesn’t make a lick of fiscal sense?” Damn. It would be less expensive to call a taxi. It would be less expensive to hire a neighbor for $25 to take the person to the grocery store or to the doctor’s office. But I guess as long as a handful of people benefit and don’t pay, it matters not how much it costs everyone else.

    And John, there is something truly evil about any religious institution and its leadership who have less moral integrity than the secular police departments and prosecutor’s offices. That’s what has happened with the sex abuse/ pedophile scandal in the Catholic Church. (And I am sure many other churches.) Protect the institution, cover it all up, ignore the problem, preach “forgive and forget” — with no justice and no accountability. It is a very expensive lesson (multi-million dollars) and yet these churches (especially the Catholic Church) do not learn the lesson. Nor do the parishioners learn the lesson either because they keep putting dollars into the collection boxes. And then those dollars go to pay the victims of their crimes and the pastors/ clergy can “do no wrong.”

    None of these things are sustainable. No one can give what they do not have to give. Sooner or later, collapse will come. Count on it. In the church, in society, in politics, in finance, in the United States, in Europe.

    Liked by 1 person

    • John said, on July 22, 2017 at 7:25 PM

      Susan, yes, the evil is everywhere, and I had MICE in mind, in particular. At least (not that it makes it any better, no, no, no), but in MICE churches there are cover-ups beyond belief. Miles beyond belief. All to protect the money . . . the “perks” . . . the power . . . the authority (smoked up in a dream) . . . and the self-pride.

      Blessings!

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      • John said, on July 23, 2017 at 3:25 AM

        Susan, what I meant to say but what my keyboard did not receive from my brain, was that at least in the RCC sexual abuse has been known and well-documented (even to this day) for ages, but in MICE churches this evil and dastardly deeds are being covered up at all costs. If they really want to be honest, these MICE, then they’d have to agree that God is the one to blame for these horrible sexual abuses.That HE is the one causing them to do it. But since their illogical and warped system is just that, they’ll admit to nothing but simply pull out the hackneyed meaningless phrases (“we’re ALL just sinners… blah blah blah).

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    • lydia00 said, on July 24, 2017 at 1:43 PM

      I am not a fan but psychologist George Simon’s has been warning about this. His view is that decent hardworking rule following Americans have been carrying the burden for decades and rewarded with a horrible economy, stifling regulations, disappearing middle class and the very real threat that when you need an ambulance for a heart attack, they will all be going to drug overdoses and gun shot gang stuff.

      They are fed up. We see the result.

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  3. Andy Young, PPT contributing editor said, on July 23, 2017 at 7:42 AM

    “When the common good of a society [or “church” or christian university or some other religious institution] is regarded as something apart from and superior to the individual good of its members, it means that the good of some men takes precedence over the good of others, with those others consigned to the status of sacrificial animals.” ~ Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

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  4. republican mother said, on July 23, 2017 at 9:59 AM

    Like Lydia, I was raised to have independent mind when it came to religion. Any pastor trying to use the authority card has always been met with mild chuckling on my part. I actually grew up with the New Age/Wicca stuff so I’ve never been able to understand why Christian pastors weren’t marking and avoiding that stuff in their sermon time and studies. That’s why I enjoy Charles Lawson’s sermons on Youtube because he “goes there” and states the need for more home fellowship, which is a view he stated he previously didn’t have.

    Also, regarding RCC, I have been re-listening to the old Art Bell/Malachi Martin interviews, which have been really fascinating given that they were recorded 20 years ago. Dr. Martin, a Jesuit Papist, makes the distinction between the RCC as an organization and the people that are the actual church. He said as an organization they were in “deep doo doo”, and that there was an underground church in American meeting in homes and such to preserve the integrity of the mass. Didn’t think I’d hear a home fellowship endorsement from a Roman Catholic priest!

    This last neo-cal takeover pastor remarked in one of his sermons that he had respect for the sacrifice of this family he met with seven or eight kids. This was a veiled shout-out to me, pregnant with my seventh kid. I just shook my head and thought this guy doesn’t “get it”. I don’t go around thinking about sacrifice when I look at my kids. I just see dimples and experience a lot of laughter. Now when the stomach virus hits, I will briefly fantasize about being at a tropical resort alone, but everyone has moments like that. This same guy went on and on in Sunday School about the sacrifice of Christ and mentioned the RCC movie Passion of the Christ and how that showed him how much Jesus sacrificed-he was really enamored of the torture from that movie, which my family has chosen not to see. I just said, it’s His LOVE, and that shut him up quick. No one killed the Lord Jesus Christ, He laid down His life. Just like if your kid gets into trouble you don’t think about the bail money, or whatever you’ve got to do to go get them, you just DO IT.

    Regarding community sacrifice, an interesting avenue of study is the Reece Committee of 1952 where they found that in the founding minutes of the Carnegie Foundation for International Peace, they decided that war was the best way to get a society to change quickly because people will sacrifice during war time what they won’t in peace time. Of course this strategy is old as the hills, but so many in America don’t see it operating in front of their eyes.

    I think these pastors making money on the institutional church system have their days number. Like the printing press broke open the church, so is the internet breaking their stronghold on religious information. They probably won’t like the idea that their Sovereign Gawd would cause them to be fry cooks.:)

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    • Susan said, on July 23, 2017 at 11:28 AM

      I am off on tangents. Sorry about that. My comment about the regional transit system is because that has become this huge topic of debate in my community. And my comment about the sex abuse scandals is because I associate the scandals with children being “sacrificed” on the altar for the good of the institution (the church).

      The more I think about it, sacrifice and entitlement are two sides of the same coin. At some point the people who are “the sacrifice” get burnt out and begin to feel as if they are slaves to the system. How much of my income do I have to pay in taxes before I am “owned” by the state for the benefit of “the poor” or “the less fortunate”?

      In a sense, the money we pay in taxes, which is then redistributed to the “not-for-profit” churches for their social justice programs (read, Islamic resettlement programs), is an enforced “church tithe” by the state at the point of a gun. Just about every church is doing it, and it will undermine and destroy our nation and its people.

      The days for many things are numbered, I do believe. The sooner the institutional church collapses, in my opinion, the better. There are some “good people” in the churches (who truly belong to the Lord), but for the most part, I think the entire edifice is downright wicked. It is wicked deeds and wicked doctrine.

      Let the institutional church system collapse. The future is the home fellowship movement. Thankfully. Yes, the internet has become the modern day printing press. Even if the powers that be shut down the web (or severely monitor/ censor/ curtail it), it is too late for them. The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak.

      Your comment about war being the best way to create sacrifice is enlightening. Not to be a conspiracy theorist or anything …. but I suspect we are headed for WW III or Civil War 2.0 …. because the government needs to “cull the herd” and “reset the system.” The US is bankrupt and war is a perfect distraction and diversion.

      Liked by 1 person

    • John said, on July 23, 2017 at 11:36 AM

      Oh, yes, R Mother, these deceivers’ skeletons are falling out of their closets like seven kids (like yours?) running in seven different directions when the car doors open. Soon (in fact, it’s already happening) these MICE churches and their Sovereign “Gawd” (who is that guy who is so hateful?) won’t be able to stop the tide of pessimism and reliable info about their movement.

      R Mother, since high school (you know, that specific day when you realize that people lie to you on purpose for whatever motives), I’ve been anti-institutionalized “church.” I (and former wife) raised our kids accordingly . . . letting them decide on their own, and they have, and I am thrilled with their decisions.

      Sacrifice? Sigh, people from the MICE church (this ain’t no lie) actually take pilgrimages to where the Apostle Paul traveled and spoke and got beaten up and this and that. And they go to the places where he supposedly made his tents and where he drew water and then these affluent MICE pose for selfies at these places, thinking the whole experience is a “sacrifice” . . . traveling and wasting money on their “hajj.” And then they return, all spirit-filled.

      A former friend told me she is supposed to “follow Paul” as it is written in 1 Corinthians 11:1. “Oh,” I said, “is that where that verse ends? To follow Paul?” (Paul is big in Reformed.Calvinist circles but the irony is that it’s Paul who destroys Calvinist doctrine.)

      May those car doors open and let the truth start running in all directions and into the minds of the deceived and uninformed. That movement will implode, and I will laugh at that.

      Liked by 1 person

      • republican mother said, on July 23, 2017 at 12:09 PM

        My Orthodox friend commented that evangelicals are becoming very Roman Catholic-like lately. I replied, yes, it’s because they are using catholic bibles and and quoting their boy Augustine all the time. Going on pilgrimages is a very RCC thing to do.

        Regarding Paul, the neo-cal change agent pastor recounted Paul’s experience in Phillippi as negative and why would Paul want to go back there? And I’m like double taking my Bible to see where he’s getting that from. The man had a Holy Ghost rock concert in Phillippi with the only bad thing happening was the whipping that Jesus said they could expect. People got saved, miraculous jail break, Christian friends, what’s not to love? Weird how these people can totally invert what the Bible is saying.

        I’ve learned so much about Christianity on the internet than I ever could have gotten at church. Now my dad was/is a psychopath pervert who got kicked out of the Christian education scene, but he did teach me not to take people at face value. I’ve always been a cynical person because of that. I also had a great psych/soc teacher in high school that taught us kids how to identify cult recruiters, which I always have kept in the back of mind in church situations.

        Eventually the sacrifice hits the breaking point, and people indeed decide, when is it my turn? We are having discussions about transit in my neck of the woods; these Californians are trying to displace our individualistic TN culture here and a lot of us have had it with them. The Carnegie minutes date back to 1905, so they’ve been using the whole war, sacrifice, wash, repeat for several cycles now.

        I always like to imagine Paul’s reaction to the modern church. I think it would be something like at the end of the Planet of the Apes.

        Liked by 1 person

  5. lydia00 said, on July 24, 2017 at 3:18 PM

    I hadn’t thought of the billions going to RCC NGO’s for resettlement of Muslim refugees as a forced tithe by government including the UN. Brilliant insight! On the money.

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    • Susan said, on July 24, 2017 at 4:02 PM

      It is all of them, Lydia. It is the Lutherans, Baptists, Assembly of Gods, Vineyard, Anglicans, etc. All of them are taking significant amounts of money from the government for these Islamic resettlement efforts. The Catholic Church has taken the bulk of the monies, I believe, but the other churches aren’t that far behind. Pay your taxes and tithe to all of these churches ….. whether you want to or not. Whether you support it or not.

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      • lydia00 said, on July 24, 2017 at 10:44 PM

        Russ Moore is trying to get the SBC in on the take through the ERLC and NGOs.

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      • lydia00 said, on July 24, 2017 at 10:45 PM

        I mention the Catholics because they have been doing it the longest and globally.

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      • Susan said, on July 25, 2017 at 1:07 PM

        I believe the amount was 1.6 billion dollars for Catholic Social Services per a Washington Post article from 2015. (Not that I trust the WaPost, but they can’t lie about everything, can they?) So you know it’s much more money than that! 60% of the CSS budget and we (as in all of us no matter our religious affiliation) are paying for it in our tax dollars. Somewhere I happened upon a chart that listed out amounts for each religious “charity” and NGO.

        The other churches were not far behind. MONEY is the reason the churches are 100% behind the resettlement efforts. At the Vineyard Church in my community, there is an “invite a Muslim family to dinner” initiative. I know people who are going along with it — smiles pasted on their faces: “we are all God’s creation, no matter our religion. The Muslims are good people.” I don’t understand how people can be so lacking in discernment.

        I am on a tangent today, but not too long ago, I had a hellacious nightmare. I dreamed I was in a church (I don’t know what church); it was the middle of the worship service. Four or five men dressed in military gear entered the sanctuary with weapons (assault rifles), locked the doors and proceeded to kill everything that breathed — sparing nothing. I awakened shaken to my very core. Sleep was not going to be had for the rest of that night.

        Now I don’t know if it were news coverage of recent terrorist attacks that caused me to have that dream — or if it were a warning from the Lord. But, an odd thing happened later: I told one of my very best friends about my dream. (She is a Christian.) She asked me for details which I gave her with some annoyance (because it was not exactly pleasant to recount.) Then she says to me, “Susan, I have had that exact same dream.”

        It is coming. It will happen. And when it does, the slaughter of innocent men, women and children will be laid squarely upon the doorsteps of these churches that sold out their own people for filthy lucre. And upon the door of the Muslim perpetrators too. (But of course, they believe that the murder of infidels honors their god, Allah.) Home church will be the wave of the future for more reasons than wrong doctrine and spiritual and sexual abuse.

        Liked by 1 person

      • John said, on July 25, 2017 at 4:33 PM

        I don’t mind your tangents one bit. They’re revealing, informative, and funny.

        Like

  6. lydia00 said, on July 25, 2017 at 11:42 AM

    Individualism is pretty much my overall issue. It has become the great sin. Described as selfish by most Christians and frankly the country. As people go further and further into group think they rationalize so much evil. From Islam is a religion of peace to the bizarre notion of white privilege. (Are my kids more privileged than say, Obamas? Colin Powells? A black police chiefs?) this is nothing but a focus on group thinking, tribalism, cultural caste systems.

    And it leads to seemingly small things that end up being big things. An example would be cities that are changing the punishment for laws about public defecation because it is affecting refugees the most. So they make the punishment lighter or non existent. So standards are lowered because others cannot assimilate to the higher standards we have for public health. We must over look of the temptation to object to someone who came from a more barbaric culture defecating in public. We should not expect higher standards in our country. Add to that the heinous FGM that is only just now starting to bring arrests. But even then little girls are not taken from parents who held them down for the mutilation. Back in 2010 the pediatric Association committee event floated the idea of doing the procedure in a clinical environment for multiculturalism sake. Doctors Who swear an oath not to harm!

    Individualism is worth fighting for. Tribalistic group think is death and enabling evil.

    Like

    • John said, on July 25, 2017 at 12:11 PM

      Yup, Lydia. Where I’m from urinating in public (against a public wall/hall, against a parked car; doesn’t matter; against your fence, etc.) goes without issuing of fines. But boy, just dare speak out against this primitive behavior and guess what? You are a racist then, an insensitive, unloving racist.

      (Psst . . . I’ll be right back. I’ve just spotted a nice clean wall…)

      Like

  7. lydia00 said, on July 25, 2017 at 6:29 PM

    Oh, we are not talking about urinating which is bad enough. But the other one. That is how bad it has gotten. That is the result of 30 years of constant indoctrination on multiculturalism. Don’t judge. Don’t speak up. They think it normal.

    Like

  8. lydia00 said, on July 25, 2017 at 6:36 PM

    Susan, few get what it takes to break with their community with conversion. They think they are in America and have a choice.

    Here is an interesting article about population stats and behaviors. ( I know I am terribly politically incorrect just a factual realist)

    http://www.commonsenseevaluation.com/2013/06/03/muslim-behaviorterrorism-correlated-with-population-size/#sthash.JlrKacFR.dpbs

    This is what we are seeing in Europe. Muslim countries are downright barbaric,

    Like


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