Paul's Passing Thoughts

PLEASE! Stop Letting Calvinists Determine the Context of the Determinism Debate

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on April 22, 2017
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So, my daughter referred me to a Facebook page called “The Reformed Cage.” Invariably, Andy Young and I went over there and engaged in some debate. No surprises here; the crowd over there argues from a seemingly impressive array of Bible verses that seem to say God predetermines the eternal destiny of all individuals according to salvation or damnation. Of course, none of the verses cited say that specifically, but to be fair, that is the conclusion that can be drawn.

What incited this post follows: after Andy and I rattled the cage over there, the latest post on their page is an impressive laundry list of verses that supposedly prove God predetermines the salvation and damnation of individuals. This “election” doctrine is said to humble man and makes man’s ability to choose a salvation of works. Salvation is by faith alone, and our faith is granted to us by God according to what He has predetermined. Man has no free will to choose God.

While all of that may be true, here is the problem: election is primarily, if not exclusively, the darling of Protestantism. It isn’t historically unique by any means, but no other ideology rides that hobby horse like Protestantism. Their “gospel of sovereignty” is the centerpiece. And, Protestantism is a false gospel. The Reformed have effectively kept the argument focused on the fruit of their tree and not the fact that the tree is a bad tree. Election is a deep issue while their law-based soteriology is an elementary error. In fact, the Reformed keep people distracted with a myriad of residual issues while remaining very vulnerable in regard to their false law-based gospel.

And even more uncommendable is the reality that most Protestants don’t know what Protestantism is. This explains why they joyously and boastfully and zealously defend determinism; because they believe and defend the “gospel of sovereignty,” it must mean they are God’s elect. And regardless of the notion that God predetermines apart from any merit, doesn’t the fact that He chose them make them special? Why do you think they are so arrogant? Why do you think they boast in the doctrine? God has chosen them and not others. But of course, not based on any kind of merit that makes them better than an Arminian (wink, wink). Nevertheless, their disdain for those who believe in freewill is evident.

Herein is the problem; Calvin, their Doctor of election, held to three classes/categories of elect and one of them is a temporary election. In fact, ANY professing Protestant could be of the temporary elect and destined for a greater damnation than the non-elect class. In other words, their arrogance and boasting is based on ignorance. The “P” in TULIP, represents the third class of elect; those who persevere to the end according to God’s predetermined will. Does this mean that most Calvinists have no clue regarding the full ramifications of TULIP? Yes.  

Though Calvinists scripture stack verses that indicate predeterminism, let us remember that Arminians can stack just as many verses that indicate freewill. And let us also remember that God is not a God of confusion. Here is the problem: like the huge need for sanctification music in our day, there is a huge need for a body of study in reference to election and freewill. TANC has gotten the ball rolling, but a much greater collective effort of the Spirit filled laity is needed.

Stop debating Protestants about election; they don’t even hold to a biblical gospel. And therefore, their whole take on election is suspect at best. Election is an unwinnable debate at this point; debate them on the elementary theological math of their law-based gospel.

paul    

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9 Responses

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  1. John said, on April 22, 2017 at 12:24 PM

    That’s why the whole diabolical mess of Calvinism (Protestantism/ Reformed rubbish, whatever) is just that, diabolical: diabolical because its foundation is unbiblical, ungodly, and anti-Christian because of its false gospel of progressive justification, total depravity, and all those detestable things that their gods thought up while they were probably smoking something similar to Muhammad and doing (wink, wink) similar things as old Moh the pedophile.

    They use election because of their pride, Paul. Come on, if the sawvrinn’ gawt has chosen them, then who the hell are we to even suggest they may be wrong in anything, never mind being wrong in everything? They won’t listen…they can’t…it’s a “work.”

    Sigh and bubbles; 500 years of this rubbish. Time for it to curl up and die like the sick dog it is.

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  2. republican mother said, on April 22, 2017 at 6:22 PM

    They’re like abortionists: they’ve been born and enjoy the life they’ve been given, but don’t want anyone else to be born. They represent the height of selfishness, which is that obnoxious, petulent spirit that these Calvinists exude.

    Not one verse in the Bible says that the non- elect are going to hell. Food for thought.

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    • republican mother said, on April 22, 2017 at 7:20 PM

      Edit: they “think” they’ve been born, but are really just trying to come to God another way. The analogy kind of breaks down when they deny the new birth.

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      • John said, on April 23, 2017 at 5:11 AM

        Yes, republic mother. They are “spiritual abortionists.” And they do keep (kill) thousands upon thousands from finding the true God (the new birth). Hence the petulance, the elitism, the know-it-alls. If only they’d realize they’re worshipping a god that has nothing to do with the Bible. How much pride can you fit into one building?

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  3. johnimmel said, on April 24, 2017 at 9:43 AM

    “PLEASE! Stop Letting Calvinists “Determine” the context . . .” LOL

    Paul did you mean to make a joke? Calvinists determine . . . uh . . . er …

    Anyway Paul is mostly right here. I contend that any proof texting debate with Calvinists is a fools errand. An appeal to “scripture” is really an appeal to “authority” and there is no authority that evil Calvinists recognize but their own. So parsing the Justification/Sanctification quagmire is mostly futile. It either falls on dead ears (the evil men at the top of the food chain) or it falls on dull ears (the evil pew sitters begging spiritual scraps from the evil men at the top of the food chain).

    However, i find the Calvinist obsession with determinism to be the single most undermining argument they hold … because they NEVER act consistent with the doctrinal assertion.

    The moment they say “election” they mean “determined to go to heaven” which means there is no human action (including rational mental processes) that produces an outcome. There is no causal relationship between human action and human outcome . . . full stop!

    But notice that Calvinist officiandos LOVE to debate. Wait a minute . . . does no one else see the philosophical inconsistency?

    Come on . . . think!

    The moment any Calvinist seeks to “debate” they are betraying that they don’t really believe in determinism. Debate is a concept rooted in rational independence . . . e.g. an argument (or a rational presentation of better ideas) that can “change” some ones mind. But there is no such thing as rational independence in the deterministic world.

    This was John Piper’s fraud in his conversation with Paul. He wants to play both sides of the philosophical fence: commitment to Calvin’s orthodoxy AND the ability to dismiss any idea he deems erroneous. But there is no human agency in gods salvifiic plan which means there is no such thing as persuasion… there is no thought process by any individual that “leads them to god” …. it is imputed to them. It just is… like the sun moon and stars. If you ain’t picked to go to heaven it sucks to be you. Oh well.

    The only thing to say to a Facebook evangelist is to call them a doctrinal fraud. no amount of bible proof texting has any value.

    So yes, Paul is mostly right. Stop letting those evil Calvinists “determine” >snicker< the context for the debate. There assertion of election eliminates ALL claims to independent thought.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr. said, on April 24, 2017 at 12:21 PM

      Right, they want to use reason to argue for giving up reason. And that’s not in a manner of speaking or per se. The TRUE founding document of the Protestant Reformation was Martin Luther’s 97 Thesis against using reason in theology. That’s how wacky the whole thing is. After the 97T came the Heidelberg Disputation, and then the 95T 6 months later. Protestants lie and say the 95T was the founding document of the Reformation because the first two are damning in regard to what the Protestant Reformation was really about.

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    • Lydia said, on April 25, 2017 at 8:33 PM

      “The moment they say “election” they mean “determined to go to heaven” which means there is no human action (including rational mental processes) that produces an outcome. There is no causal relationship between human action and human outcome . . . full stop!

      But notice that Calvinist officiandos LOVE to debate. Wait a minute . . . does no one else see the philosophical inconsistency?

      Come on . . . think!

      The moment any Calvinist seeks to “debate” they are betraying that they don’t really believe in determinism. Debate is a concept rooted in rational independence . . . e.g. an argument (or a rational presentation of better ideas) that can “change” some ones mind. But there is no such thing as rational independence in the deterministic world.”

      Oh how true. They could never wrap their heads around this. They want people to believe they are speaking for God because He determined their words. Their truth.

      And of corse they trot out compatablism because even they know they have to have something to sell for human agency but it’s the same thing! It explains nothing. It’s a bone thrown to human agancy with Gods marionette strings loosened.

      I finally gave up and had some fun with them. But Frankly this thinking is all around us and not just at church. We have philosopher kings everywhere and their loyal followers.

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      • John said, on April 26, 2017 at 11:35 AM

        Hi, Lydia. You’ve had some “fun” with a Calvinist? Sound like the title for a possible TANC series.

        Yes, Lydia, their twisted way of reasoning (lack thereof) is spreading and is found outside their synagogues and holy Calvin and Luther temples. The philosopher kings are everywhere…some (only they know HOW) are trying to save Mother Earth and all that guano. And Europe. And America. And anything that looks like a rain forest. And France. And all the hungry and dying kids (always in Africa). What’s happened to the whale, by the way? Did the old giant make it in the end? In the 80s, “Save the Whale” was as big as Social Media today.

        Blessings, Lydia

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  4. John said, on April 24, 2017 at 11:10 AM

    Great points, John Immel. That’s one of the reason’s I find Calvinist/Reformed “apologists” so amusingly hypocritical and inimical (like James White and every single Calvinist blog out there). Not to mention rude. And they let you know, clearly, it’s all about “truth.'(But whose bloomin’ truth?). THEIR truth, of course, because you ain’t knowin’ nuttin’ coz you don’t belong to Calvin.

    Liked by 1 person


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