Andy starting at 1hr26min mark (excellently, IMO) assesses reformed teaching of depravity & man’s ability. Belief is a choice of man, he says. I wholeheartedly agree.
Bo responds: Infinite intervenes so finite can believe & points out the Bible verse on screen. He adds that aborted babies, pagans in other countries, etc. aren’t saved, but in millennial reign of Christ another opportunity arises to be saved, in his opinion.
Bo then mentioned the death of Job’s first set of children. Bo essentially said: It was by grace of God that Job lost his children (because Job wasn’t a believer). Bo surmises the children would have been lost anyway. So then it is God’s grace that took Job’s first set of kids.
I am absolutely horrified by this idea of God & His active grace (mercy/ love?) that kills kids (if they aren’t saved)!
That is Andrea Yate’s EXACT reason for killing each of her 5 children. Make no mistake, in her mind she WAS the messenger & deliverer of God’s grace! She WAS being merciful. Make no mistake, her logic is NO DIFFERENT than what Bo stated. She thought she was sinful, she thought her kids weren’t saved. She believed in original sin. She believed children were sinners from birth. In truth, she faithfully lived her horrific beliefs.
Bo sounds like a nice, caring man & I’d bet he would condemn what Andrea did… BUT it’s because he doesn’t live out or act on his professed theory/belief/idea. I think there is a big disconnect here. In his defense, it’s the prevailing thought/teaching in our day. I thought like he did, for a brief while, I’m ashamed to say. And I was disconnected, I realized I didn’t live out my beliefs. I jump for joy when I hear someone telling others to think for themselves! We must swim, and not float by strong current.
But there is something far worse than a personal disconnect. This is NOT what we teach victims or perps. This is why the world doesn’t get Christianity, thinks it’s the same as Islam, and rightfully so!!!!!!!
I see all sort of problems with this belief (who decides if kids who are killed are saved?, when is it God that does the “mercy killing”?, etc.) that I didn’t go into here….
MOST IMPORTANTLY, I am glad that we hear both sides, a debate if you will, about beliefs & how they are lived out or not lived out: outcomes. I am NOT against speakers & audiences with differing opinions calmly discussing their views. We need more of these types of discussions. It is very helpful. I am glad Andy & Zach spoke up with their differing points of view. It is rare to see these types of discussions, in an environment in which both sides can safely express differing points of view. That is great. That is a testament of this conference. Show me another conference like this one! Usually conferences are lectures, which don’t allow dissent. Let me tell you, open dissent, expression of differing ideas is what America is supposed to foster & encourage. I say, let each one speak & then agree or disagree… but please let us all think.
“We are a think tank, and our observers expect thinking to take place, not a solidifying of every element that we have believed all of our Christian lives as told to us by others.” Paul Dohse
Bad Religion Partially to Blame for Tragedy in Texas
BY: David Waters
The (Memphis, TN) Commercial Appeal
March 20, 2002
There’s no doubt Andrea Yates drowned her five children in a bathtub, one by one. There’s also no doubt her accomplices included mental illness, social isolation – and bad religion. Bad religion is a graceless form of religion that dwells in the dark, preying on sick and vulnerable minds and souls. It’s a loveless form of religion that flourishes in fear and delights in doubt. It’s a hopeless form of religion that obsesses over such notions as original sin, eternal damnation, and the devil. It’s a punitive and abusive form of religion that heavily influenced the mother of Noah, John, Paul, Luke, and Mary. “The Bible says the devil prowls around looking for someone to devour,” Russell Yates, Andrea’s husband, told Time magazine. “Jesus says, `Resist the devil and he will flee from you.’ Andrea did not have the strength to resist.'” Psychiatrists testified that Andrea Yates was severely depressed and delusional, possibly suffering from paranoid and catatonic schizophrenia. She also tended to isolate herself and her home-schooled children from family and friends. She also believed demons surrounded her and she was fulfilling a prophecy by drowning her five children last June. “She believed that the children would be tormented and perish in the fires of hell unless they were killed,” Dr. Melissa Ferguson testified. According to Time magazine, Yates told jail doctors the death of her children was her punishment, not theirs. “She had failed her children,” Time reported. “Only her execution would rescue her from the evil inside her – a state-sanctioned exorcism in which George W. Bush, the former Governor and now President, would come to save her from the clutches of Satan.” No one saved Andrea Yates or her children from the clutches of bad religion. The bad religion she encountered teaches that newborn children are sinners, inherently evil. It teaches that women are wicked descendants of Eve, who is responsible for Man’s fall from grace. It teaches that illness is a punishment for sin. Bad religion is taught by people like Michael Woroniecki, an intinerant street preacher who was a sort of spiritual adviser to Rusty and Andrea Yates. Woroniecki was arrested several times in the early 1980s in Grand Rapids, Mich., for berating people with a bullhorn and his distorted version of the Bible, according to the Grand Rapids (Mich.) Press. Woroniecki left Grand Rapids after that and began touring the country with his wife, Rachel, and their children, living in a bus. The Yateses followed their example and also lived in a bus for a while. Russell Yates met Woroniecki at Auburn University in the 1980s. They reconnected in 1998. “Andrea, moved by the repent-or-burn zeal, wound up exchanging letters with the preacher and his wife for years,” Time reported. In one letter, Michael Woroniecki wrote, “the role of women is derived . . . from the sin of Eve” and that bad children come from bad mothers, Time reported. In another letter, Rachel Woroniecki wrote, “Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death,” ABC News reported.
“And where does grace come in when ending an unsaved life? Could Mr. Grissom mean that ending their lives reduced their degree of suffering in hell by shortening their capacity to further “damn” themselves?” Anon
Great question. Mr. Grissom would have to tell us.
My take of what he meant when he said God, in grace, took Job’s children is this:
God had foreknowledge that Job’s children would not be saved if given the opportunity to grow up. I think this is what he meant because he follows by saying they would not be saved because Job was not saved (how he knows they weren’t already saved or would be saved in the future, I don’t know). My guess is Mr. Grissom doesn’t think children go to hell. They have some sort of saving grace other than Jesus. (Kind of like the saving grace specifically for those who die as kids which Al Mohler talked about, which is referenced by Paul on this blog). Anyhow, he makes it clear it was a mercy killing by God. My guess is he thinks it’s merciful so they WOULD go to heaven. My guess is this is how he reconciles the story of Job & the death of Job’s kids to a merciful God.
Of course I don’t think this is logical either, because Mr. Grissom then says Job went from being unsaved to saved. If that’s the case, couldn’t his children have done the same if they had lived? Also, if God is merciful by killing children who would grow up to be unsaved & go to hell, then why is there EVER an unsaved adult person going to hell? God is only sometimes merciful by killing only some children? That circles us right back to election, predestination, God chooses & not us. And it also assigns evil/killing to God.
This is why Andrea Yates came right to the forefront of my mind. Andrea believed she was saving her kids from hell by killing them before they reached adulthood. She, their parent, was sinful. Her kids were doomed. Solution? They would be saved by her murderous & merciful/gracious hands, in her opinion. It was a true act of love, she made sure of her children’s salvation, in her opinion.
Let’s get real. There is a serious problem when:
The actions are condemned, but the logic/theology/ideas that perpetrated the action are upheld.
And it’s this very point that some discernment blogs miss completely. That’s tragic.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Andy starting at 1hr26min mark (excellently, IMO) assesses reformed teaching of depravity & man’s ability. Belief is a choice of man, he says. I wholeheartedly agree.
Bo responds: Infinite intervenes so finite can believe & points out the Bible verse on screen. He adds that aborted babies, pagans in other countries, etc. aren’t saved, but in millennial reign of Christ another opportunity arises to be saved, in his opinion.
Bo then mentioned the death of Job’s first set of children. Bo essentially said: It was by grace of God that Job lost his children (because Job wasn’t a believer). Bo surmises the children would have been lost anyway. So then it is God’s grace that took Job’s first set of kids.
I am absolutely horrified by this idea of God & His active grace (mercy/ love?) that kills kids (if they aren’t saved)!
That is Andrea Yate’s EXACT reason for killing each of her 5 children. Make no mistake, in her mind she WAS the messenger & deliverer of God’s grace! She WAS being merciful. Make no mistake, her logic is NO DIFFERENT than what Bo stated. She thought she was sinful, she thought her kids weren’t saved. She believed in original sin. She believed children were sinners from birth. In truth, she faithfully lived her horrific beliefs.
Bo sounds like a nice, caring man & I’d bet he would condemn what Andrea did… BUT it’s because he doesn’t live out or act on his professed theory/belief/idea. I think there is a big disconnect here. In his defense, it’s the prevailing thought/teaching in our day. I thought like he did, for a brief while, I’m ashamed to say. And I was disconnected, I realized I didn’t live out my beliefs. I jump for joy when I hear someone telling others to think for themselves! We must swim, and not float by strong current.
But there is something far worse than a personal disconnect. This is NOT what we teach victims or perps. This is why the world doesn’t get Christianity, thinks it’s the same as Islam, and rightfully so!!!!!!!
I see all sort of problems with this belief (who decides if kids who are killed are saved?, when is it God that does the “mercy killing”?, etc.) that I didn’t go into here….
MOST IMPORTANTLY, I am glad that we hear both sides, a debate if you will, about beliefs & how they are lived out or not lived out: outcomes. I am NOT against speakers & audiences with differing opinions calmly discussing their views. We need more of these types of discussions. It is very helpful. I am glad Andy & Zach spoke up with their differing points of view. It is rare to see these types of discussions, in an environment in which both sides can safely express differing points of view. That is great. That is a testament of this conference. Show me another conference like this one! Usually conferences are lectures, which don’t allow dissent. Let me tell you, open dissent, expression of differing ideas is what America is supposed to foster & encourage. I say, let each one speak & then agree or disagree… but please let us all think.
“We are a think tank, and our observers expect thinking to take place, not a solidifying of every element that we have believed all of our Christian lives as told to us by others.” Paul Dohse
A resounding, hearty, happy Amen to that!
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Bad Religion Partially to Blame for Tragedy in Texas
BY: David Waters
The (Memphis, TN) Commercial Appeal
March 20, 2002
There’s no doubt Andrea Yates drowned her five children in a bathtub, one by one. There’s also no doubt her accomplices included mental illness, social isolation – and bad religion. Bad religion is a graceless form of religion that dwells in the dark, preying on sick and vulnerable minds and souls. It’s a loveless form of religion that flourishes in fear and delights in doubt. It’s a hopeless form of religion that obsesses over such notions as original sin, eternal damnation, and the devil. It’s a punitive and abusive form of religion that heavily influenced the mother of Noah, John, Paul, Luke, and Mary. “The Bible says the devil prowls around looking for someone to devour,” Russell Yates, Andrea’s husband, told Time magazine. “Jesus says, `Resist the devil and he will flee from you.’ Andrea did not have the strength to resist.'” Psychiatrists testified that Andrea Yates was severely depressed and delusional, possibly suffering from paranoid and catatonic schizophrenia. She also tended to isolate herself and her home-schooled children from family and friends. She also believed demons surrounded her and she was fulfilling a prophecy by drowning her five children last June. “She believed that the children would be tormented and perish in the fires of hell unless they were killed,” Dr. Melissa Ferguson testified. According to Time magazine, Yates told jail doctors the death of her children was her punishment, not theirs. “She had failed her children,” Time reported. “Only her execution would rescue her from the evil inside her – a state-sanctioned exorcism in which George W. Bush, the former Governor and now President, would come to save her from the clutches of Satan.” No one saved Andrea Yates or her children from the clutches of bad religion. The bad religion she encountered teaches that newborn children are sinners, inherently evil. It teaches that women are wicked descendants of Eve, who is responsible for Man’s fall from grace. It teaches that illness is a punishment for sin. Bad religion is taught by people like Michael Woroniecki, an intinerant street preacher who was a sort of spiritual adviser to Rusty and Andrea Yates. Woroniecki was arrested several times in the early 1980s in Grand Rapids, Mich., for berating people with a bullhorn and his distorted version of the Bible, according to the Grand Rapids (Mich.) Press. Woroniecki left Grand Rapids after that and began touring the country with his wife, Rachel, and their children, living in a bus. The Yateses followed their example and also lived in a bus for a while. Russell Yates met Woroniecki at Auburn University in the 1980s. They reconnected in 1998. “Andrea, moved by the repent-or-burn zeal, wound up exchanging letters with the preacher and his wife for years,” Time reported. In one letter, Michael Woroniecki wrote, “the role of women is derived . . . from the sin of Eve” and that bad children come from bad mothers, Time reported. In another letter, Rachel Woroniecki wrote, “Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death,” ABC News reported.
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2002/03/Bad-Religion-Partially-To-Blame-For-Tragedy-In-Texas.aspx#GdA6EC5c6ygdg34b.99
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“And where does grace come in when ending an unsaved life? Could Mr. Grissom mean that ending their lives reduced their degree of suffering in hell by shortening their capacity to further “damn” themselves?” Anon
Great question. Mr. Grissom would have to tell us.
My take of what he meant when he said God, in grace, took Job’s children is this:
God had foreknowledge that Job’s children would not be saved if given the opportunity to grow up. I think this is what he meant because he follows by saying they would not be saved because Job was not saved (how he knows they weren’t already saved or would be saved in the future, I don’t know). My guess is Mr. Grissom doesn’t think children go to hell. They have some sort of saving grace other than Jesus. (Kind of like the saving grace specifically for those who die as kids which Al Mohler talked about, which is referenced by Paul on this blog). Anyhow, he makes it clear it was a mercy killing by God. My guess is he thinks it’s merciful so they WOULD go to heaven. My guess is this is how he reconciles the story of Job & the death of Job’s kids to a merciful God.
Of course I don’t think this is logical either, because Mr. Grissom then says Job went from being unsaved to saved. If that’s the case, couldn’t his children have done the same if they had lived? Also, if God is merciful by killing children who would grow up to be unsaved & go to hell, then why is there EVER an unsaved adult person going to hell? God is only sometimes merciful by killing only some children? That circles us right back to election, predestination, God chooses & not us. And it also assigns evil/killing to God.
This is why Andrea Yates came right to the forefront of my mind. Andrea believed she was saving her kids from hell by killing them before they reached adulthood. She, their parent, was sinful. Her kids were doomed. Solution? They would be saved by her murderous & merciful/gracious hands, in her opinion. It was a true act of love, she made sure of her children’s salvation, in her opinion.
Let’s get real. There is a serious problem when:
The actions are condemned, but the logic/theology/ideas that perpetrated the action are upheld.
And it’s this very point that some discernment blogs miss completely. That’s tragic.
LikeLike