In terms of the free-will verses predestination argument this is waaaaay to the left of center as much as calvinism is way to the right of center. Maybe my “center” is not The Center but I digress… I mean I do agree with much of his assesment of Augustine but the writings of the early Church fathers are not authoritative either. I haven’t wrapped my head around free will verses free choice yet either.
lydiasellerofpurple said, on August 13, 2013 at 9:20 PM
Sorry, I posted this video under Susan’s post not seeing this one until now. What this video shows is that free will was the understanding of the early church and that determinism was considered gnostic heresy. Augustine who became a leader years later and prolific writer that spread Westward almost unabated because of his output and position, literally changed Christianity from what it was. However, I did hear some prof talk about some Christians in France who wrote against Augustine’s position. I am trying to do more research on that.
Like I said, you’re all Calvinist-Lite. “This is too much free will. We need about 20% fatalism to remain. Waaaa! Us babies need our determinism bottle.” You disgust me.
freegracefull said, on August 14, 2013 at 11:55 AM
Perhaps it would be good if someone defined “free will”.
The way I see it is the way I see a sinner’s choice to accept the gospel. It is not that man cannot come to God in his sinful state, it is that he WILL not come to God in his sinful state.
paulspassingthoughts said, on August 14, 2013 at 12:48 PM
FG,
I have to plead ignorance on this whole election thing other than its specific purpose is stated: to completely eradicate works from justification (ROM 9:11).
“I have to plead ignorance on this whole election thing other than its specific purpose is stated: to completely eradicate works from justification”
Removing works from justification = removing freewill from justification.
Because works to a Calvinist means anything you do. And freewill allows you to do, to believe without a magic zapping.
Ultimately the Pauline conception of “election” is at fault. In Matthew, “many are called but few are chosen” but look at the context. Many, essentially all, are called to a wedding, then one who is not properly dressed is thrown out. When was the choosing? Before the call? No. After. But Paul insists on making the choosing by God, the election, BEFORE. Thee is the error!
And why does Paul do this? “So that none may boast.” God is so weak that if someone makes a vain boast that’s going to what, kill him? I mean come on! So what if someone does boast? Their boast is illegitimate. Nobody can save themselves. Just because their works contribute SOMETHING doesn’t mean they could have done it on their own. Paul’s thinking is as messed up as Luther’s and Calvin’s on this point: boasting is not that big of a deal. And if it was, why does Paul do it so much? Nobody ever boasted more than Paul, Calvin, and Luther.
If the root is corrupt, so will be the tree. Jesus said that right? We know where the corrupt root it. Its in the notion that it cannot be of works lest any man should boast. Just ignore the boasting. Don’t restructure all of theology to prevent it. That’s absurd.
The French guys must not have impressed me as much as they did you since I missed it. And I’m not about to watch the video again just to find what you’re talking about since the robot voice that reads all the texts is driving me crazy.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
[…] The Gnostic Protestant Reformation is Conspicuous Church History. […]
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Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch.
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Don’t you think this is a bit too much of a 180?
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Don’t follow (?)
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In terms of the free-will verses predestination argument this is waaaaay to the left of center as much as calvinism is way to the right of center. Maybe my “center” is not The Center but I digress… I mean I do agree with much of his assesment of Augustine but the writings of the early Church fathers are not authoritative either. I haven’t wrapped my head around free will verses free choice yet either.
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Right, I agree 200%. I posted it for the historical value alone.
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This was refreshing!
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Sorry, I posted this video under Susan’s post not seeing this one until now. What this video shows is that free will was the understanding of the early church and that determinism was considered gnostic heresy. Augustine who became a leader years later and prolific writer that spread Westward almost unabated because of his output and position, literally changed Christianity from what it was. However, I did hear some prof talk about some Christians in France who wrote against Augustine’s position. I am trying to do more research on that.
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Like I said, you’re all Calvinist-Lite. “This is too much free will. We need about 20% fatalism to remain. Waaaa! Us babies need our determinism bottle.” You disgust me.
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James, James, James, Really? Please run along and do the research on the guys in France; I am interested in that.
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Perhaps it would be good if someone defined “free will”.
The way I see it is the way I see a sinner’s choice to accept the gospel. It is not that man cannot come to God in his sinful state, it is that he WILL not come to God in his sinful state.
LikeLike
FG,
I have to plead ignorance on this whole election thing other than its specific purpose is stated: to completely eradicate works from justification (ROM 9:11).
LikeLike
“I have to plead ignorance on this whole election thing other than its specific purpose is stated: to completely eradicate works from justification”
Removing works from justification = removing freewill from justification.
Because works to a Calvinist means anything you do. And freewill allows you to do, to believe without a magic zapping.
Ultimately the Pauline conception of “election” is at fault. In Matthew, “many are called but few are chosen” but look at the context. Many, essentially all, are called to a wedding, then one who is not properly dressed is thrown out. When was the choosing? Before the call? No. After. But Paul insists on making the choosing by God, the election, BEFORE. Thee is the error!
And why does Paul do this? “So that none may boast.” God is so weak that if someone makes a vain boast that’s going to what, kill him? I mean come on! So what if someone does boast? Their boast is illegitimate. Nobody can save themselves. Just because their works contribute SOMETHING doesn’t mean they could have done it on their own. Paul’s thinking is as messed up as Luther’s and Calvin’s on this point: boasting is not that big of a deal. And if it was, why does Paul do it so much? Nobody ever boasted more than Paul, Calvin, and Luther.
If the root is corrupt, so will be the tree. Jesus said that right? We know where the corrupt root it. Its in the notion that it cannot be of works lest any man should boast. Just ignore the boasting. Don’t restructure all of theology to prevent it. That’s absurd.
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James,
How’s the research on those French guys going?
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The French guys must not have impressed me as much as they did you since I missed it. And I’m not about to watch the video again just to find what you’re talking about since the robot voice that reads all the texts is driving me crazy.
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