The Lie
Paul – in my time in the reformed church, I was taught and agreed that through our faith we are saved (justification and salvation done – complete) and we then begin our lifelong journey of sanctification as we learn and grow in our knowledge and faith. When I view the chart I have always interpreted it in the same way that I interpreted my college education – the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. In that same way, the more I know of our father, the more ugly and selfish my sins look to me. I have never been taught any more than that and I believe the chart makes a good point in that regard. If there is a deeper meaning than what I have presented I have not heard it.
Anon,
Your perfectly reasonable sounding statement is the bait that hooks people into the lie. The chart is indicative of the founding principle of Reformed theology: knowledge of good and evil. Read the first sentence of book one in the Calvin Institutes. Hence, deeper knowledge of those two things define both (reality) and continually glorify God. But the Scriptures make it clear that God is most glorified by us becoming more like Him and displaying that to the world, not a deeper self-realization of our own potential evil. Moreover, if we aren’t guilty of certain depths of evil, to ascribe ourselves to it is not the truth. Therefore, this is just another primary pillar of biblical metaphysics that Calvinism turns completely upside down. And the implications are chilling: without evil, wisdom cannot be obtained. That is a precedent that has given birth to horrific episodes of evil throughout human history. Obviously, if a deeper knowledge of evil is efficacious to gaining wisdom, evil will not be perceived in a healthy way. I am utterly convinced that this is at the root of indifference to injustice that is so prevalent in Calvinistic circles.
paul
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Lydia,
I think the terms you mentioned were in use a long time before E, Reisinger. The reason for using other terms was not to hide anything, but to avoid the misunderstanding one sees expressed here. Calvinists, so-called are not followers of Calvin. Spurgeon called it a “nick name.” As far as New Covenant Theology is concerned, I don’t think there is any real relationship between it and Calvinism apart from the fact that most who have taught it and believed it also believe in sovereign grace. In reality, it is a radical departure from what Calvin and his followers taught.
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We can find that free will and Gods foreknowledge and Sovereignty are in combination all throughout the OT and NT. If one takes a look at even the language used in Scripture we see that Gods Hand and mans responsibility are in play. All we have to do is go back to Genesis when God told Adam that he would have dominion over the earth- in that, there is mans responsibility in play. God then did not play a chess game with Adam to manipulate him and then cause Adam and Eve to sin by eating of the tree- Did He have foreknowledge? yes. Did He cause Adam and Eve to sin? No. Did man have a choice on whether or not to obey? yes. Could Adam and Eve had a choice to go the other direction and refuse the temptations of Satan? Yes.
This has been the act of the Play of Life ever since: God gives man many chances to obey; God knowing the nature of man and knowing that Satan is author of lies who will tempt man leaves man with no chance whatsoever to live the law in perfection; God providing the perfect sacrifice so that man can choose who he will serve- only through Christs sacrifice would we be able to have eternal life. Christ is the salvation that is ALL the work of God- we would not be able to be saved without Him. The choice, however, in choosing Him is ours with the work of the Holy Spirit wooing us to Him. Do you think that God would want robotic creatures to serve Him and love Him? This is where Calvinism gets it so wrong- they do not understand love (actually AGAPE love). They do not understand that God wants and desires relationship with man- they scoff at that idea and state that man cannot understand how to love God and that God has to force this on man. This is not what Scripture says. Just look at the story of David and his relationship with God- it was personal. David chose who he wanted to serve and God called David a man after His own heart. Daniel purposed in his heart who he would serve-THEN God brought Daniel favor- gave him status and wisdom. Joshua in Scripture stated to Israel “Choose this day whom you will serve” – one does not say this unless there is a choice. So why would God trick us with this word play and turn around giving us no choice?
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Actually, if you do have that concept that God has to force man to serve Him, then this is no different then the Greeks and Romans with their gods. They believed that man was in the clutches of angry gods and that these gods had to work in ways to force man to love them. In fact, their belief that nature was used to keep man in check and use to drive man to worship gods was a common practice. Love and relationship did not even enter mens minds when they built their temples to their gods. Christ came to restore that relationship between men and God with AGAPE love. AGAPE love cannot be forced; it can only be freely given and freely received.
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Lydia,
You are obviously well-read in the area of philosophy and history. You no doubt have an extensive grasp on Gnostic and Platonic thought. I suspect you have access to the Nag Hammadi library and the writings of Plato. Additionally, you have no doubt read Calvin’s Institutes and Commentaries on the Scripture. It shouldn’ t be difficult for you to produce a list of quotations from Plato and the Gnostics and parallel them with quotes from Calvin to show they were teaching the same doctrine. I am specifically referring to what has been and is being discussed here. What better way to silence, once and for all, those who claim Calvinists are not Gnostics. If you could just show them using the same or similar words in the same sense, who could question your claim?
I have seen a lot of accusations made here but very little documented argumentation. You could easily put the whole thing to rest. Who could question actual quotations set side by side?
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Lydia,
You are obviously well-read in the area of philosophy and history. You no doubt have an extensive grasp on Gnostic and Platonic thought. I suspect you have access to the Nag Hammadi library and the writings of Plato. Additionally, you have no doubt read Calvin’s Institutes and Commentaries on the Scripture. It shouldn’ t be difficult for you to produce a list of quotations from Plato and the Gnostics and parallel them with quotes from Calvin to show they were teaching the same doctrine. I am specifically referring to what has been and is being discussed here. What better way to silence, once and for all, those who claim Calvinists are not Gnostics. If you could just show them using the same or similar words in the same sense, who could question your claim?
I have seen a lot of accusations made here but very little documented argumentation. You could easily put the whole thing to rest. Who could question actual quotations set side by side?
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Trust4himonly,
Who ever told you God has to force people to love him? If that is what you think Calvinism is, no wonder you hate it. I have never met a Calvinist who believed that.
Sam
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Trust4himonly,
“God then did not play a chess game with Adam to manipulate him and then cause Adam and Eve to sin by eating of the tree- Did He have foreknowledge? yes. Did He cause Adam and Eve to sin? No. Did man have a choice on whether or not to obey? yes. Could Adam and Eve had a choice to go the other direction and refuse the temptations of Satan? Yes.”
I agree fully with that.
Would you say, then, that “free will” is the same thing as human responsibility, or would you give it another meaning?
Sam
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Trust4himonly,
I am not denying that God gives sinners a choice, but did you ever read that passage in Joshua carefully and notice between what two alternatives they were being called on to choose? After that statement he says, “you cannot serve Jehovah. . . .”
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“They do not understand that God wants and desires relationship with man- they scoff at that idea and state that man cannot understand how to love God and that God has to force this on man.”
And who is it exactly who states this?
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Then Sam, what is TULIP?
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