The Lie
Paul – in my time in the reformed church, I was taught and agreed that through our faith we are saved (justification and salvation done – complete) and we then begin our lifelong journey of sanctification as we learn and grow in our knowledge and faith. When I view the chart I have always interpreted it in the same way that I interpreted my college education – the more you learn the more you realize what you don’t know. In that same way, the more I know of our father, the more ugly and selfish my sins look to me. I have never been taught any more than that and I believe the chart makes a good point in that regard. If there is a deeper meaning than what I have presented I have not heard it.
Anon,
Your perfectly reasonable sounding statement is the bait that hooks people into the lie. The chart is indicative of the founding principle of Reformed theology: knowledge of good and evil. Read the first sentence of book one in the Calvin Institutes. Hence, deeper knowledge of those two things define both (reality) and continually glorify God. But the Scriptures make it clear that God is most glorified by us becoming more like Him and displaying that to the world, not a deeper self-realization of our own potential evil. Moreover, if we aren’t guilty of certain depths of evil, to ascribe ourselves to it is not the truth. Therefore, this is just another primary pillar of biblical metaphysics that Calvinism turns completely upside down. And the implications are chilling: without evil, wisdom cannot be obtained. That is a precedent that has given birth to horrific episodes of evil throughout human history. Obviously, if a deeper knowledge of evil is efficacious to gaining wisdom, evil will not be perceived in a healthy way. I am utterly convinced that this is at the root of indifference to injustice that is so prevalent in Calvinistic circles.
paul
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Lydia and Paul,
I think you are both right. Further discussion of these issues with you would be an exercise in futility. It is obvious we look at the same words in the same order and come away with totally meanings. I could give you a mountain of quotations showing that Reformed writers believe we are new creatures capable of pleasing God, but you would twist them to mean what you want them to mean. If you can find “the total depravity of believers” in the above citation from the Canons of Dort, or if you can’t see that statement as teaching “we are new creatures capable of pleasing God,” nothing I say will make any difference. Either I am totally incapable of interpreting the clear meanings of words or you are. At this point, I don’t really care who the idiots are.
One thing is quite clear, someone in this discussion will be under condemnation since we clearly believe two completely contradictory messages we call the gospel.
Sam
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Sam,
That is why I am focusing on their core doctrine in the book I am working on. You can make “Jesus obeys for us” sound like what your saying, but if you understand their core doctrine–it’s impossible. The Reformers believed in a daily offering of the works of Christ by faith alone to maintain justification. That’s just the bottom line.
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“One thing is quite clear, someone in this discussion will be under condemnation since we clearly believe two completely contradictory messages we call the gospel”
Sam, I am very sad to read this suggested. I cannot imagine what I have written that would condemn me as reprobate.
You know, it is this sort of thinking concerning mandatory “correct” Reformed doctrine that caused the rotten fruit of burning supposed heretics, bannishing people, drowning them for a “third baptism, imprisoning them, etc. .
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Lydia,
One final comment and I am gone. Please notice I did not state you would be the one condemned. All I stated is that one of us, [if not both of us] must be wrong since it is clear we cannot both be right.
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Lydia I was thinking the same thing – how sad, but shows the outcome of this Calvinist mindset.
Sam, we could get in a nice long discussion about Revelation and eschatology for it is one of my favorite books of the Bible and subjects to study. I have done an extensive study on it; but this I will not do here, but point you to http://www.spiritandtruth.org to do a study on Revelation by one of the teachers there- goes into the history and prophecy in great detail. He also connects OT prophecy and NT prophecy- fits nicely like a glove.
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I do have to put this tidbit of information in though that certain prophecies already HAVE come to pass:
Israel has become a nation again once more and in ONE day- 1948 just as Scripture stated. It has also been prophesied that the temple will be rebuilt- already Israel has architectural plans to rebuild a temple with priests, a red heifer, the accessories to go along with that temple, and the building supplies ready to go and they are actively promoting it. The Bible also prophesied that the world will cry out “peace and safety” and desire a one world system- these exact words were/and are being spoken by major leaders in the world such as Obama, Bush, etc.. they are also calling for a One World System with one Ruler, as prophesied. So yes, I do believe in a literal Revelation, not a Revelation that is spoken in riddles.
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error- Sorry not that Scripture stated that Israel would become a nation in 1948 exactly, but that it would become a nation again.
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Thanks for praying guys–I could sense it today. The conversation i am seeing here has further convicted me that this book has to concise, clear, and an irrefutable indictment.
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“One final comment and I am gone. Please notice I did not state you would be the one condemned. All I stated is that one of us, [if not both of us] must be wrong since it is clear we cannot both be right.”
I disagree with such a stark indictment. I sincerely believe the determinist God filter can eventually lead to bad fruit and somewhat of a Messiah complex for Calvinist pastors. That does not mean everyone who believes in a determinist God is automatically condemned from my pov. I have quite a few Calvinist friends who lives lives full of fruit. This is where I think the doctrine over people focus can be so damaging. They lean toward Calvinism but see people as more important than their doctrine. They pray and worship with people who are not Calvinists. Your reaction of condemnation because one of us or both might be wrong is over the top. It is an indicator of how folks are led astray. Just because I have reservations about Calvin’s salvation does not mean I think anyone who is a Calvinist is not saved. I look more to the fruit that comes from salvation.
There is a horrible cult of personality rising up in the Reformed movement around it’s gurus. Worse than the seekers or emergents sought to build.
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Trusthimonly, I am a “pan” mill. I think it will all ‘pan’ out in the end. :o)
I often think of the two mentions in Revelation about the “Nicolaitans”. I believe they are alive and quite well today garnering tons of followers after themselves. The “conqueror of the people”. God hates it.
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Lydia the reason Revelation is important to study is that we are told that we would be blessed by studying this prophecy; also it gives severe warning if anyone takes away or adds to this prophecy. I like to study it also because it fills me with great hope and a desire to tell others about Christ. But it definitely is a book that most want to stay from because it seems complex. http://Www.spiritandtruth.org has a great study on Revelation.
Anyway, back to the subject of Calvinism. 🙂
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trusthimonly, I did study it for quite a long time in the 90’s. And all the different positions. I am not wed to one position as there are problems in the interpretations of the OT with both. I started seeing some groups in both the premill and amill tribes become very dogmatic and divisive over it. I don’t think it is something to be dogmatic about, that is all. Mainly because we are not disagreeing on a second coming but the how it will happen.
I personally believe Tim Lahay did more to hurt prophecy than any person that ever lived. He romantisized it as a sort of Indiana Jones event while making millions. But then, his wife, Beverly made bank on telling women not to seek to be as successful as she is.
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