Honest question — how long did it take you to come out of the SGM doctrine fog? Maybe you were one of the few who saw it and faught it. If not, you may have been steeped in it for some time before you started seeing the errors. The men in the video probably “learned” much at the appropriate seminaries. It takes some time to undo all the extra baggage.
lydiasellerofpurple@yahoo.com said, on September 29, 2012 at 6:13 PM
I tend to lean with Argo on this one. I am weary of making excuses for people. We all have the same Word. It is not as if tons of intellectual arguements are not all over the blogosphere. And at the risk of sounding really nit picky, my experience over the last 20 years or so of doctrinal positions has been that people hold them based more upon “experiences” or emulating leaders. I can spot an emulator a mile away anymore. So, I do have to wonder why their conclusions concerning double imputation did not lead them on an obvious journey to even greater truth?
If I went to their website would I find a “covenant” to sign? Whose books are they recommending? I would do it myself but not willing to invest the time. I have also found other NC who do not believe in “double imputation” but DO believe in imputed guilt which basically forces one to arrive at double imputation at some point!
Lydia,
Yes…my point exactly. It isn’t hard to understand that if you refute double imputation you must refute TD and election as well. They don’t see it because they don’t want to.
If obedience matters at all to any “good” purpose (which, how can it since the only ones going to heaven are the elect anyway…so, how does obedience factor in exactly??) then, according to TD and election it MUST be by the Holy Spirit alone. Man cannot have a thing to do with it. I rember the old SGM refrain: all we contribute is our sin. And that is true if you are reformed.
The reason I know these men believe in predestination and TD is because they are self described as reformed.
Bridget,
I was a hard core Calvinist for 15 years, assuming it was humble and loving. When I got wind of the stories of rampant abuse and hypocrisy (which I realize now I chose to ignore for a long time, to my lifetime shame) I concluded it must be the doctrine. Once I realized that, I was able to draw the conclusion that all of it was bullshit within a matter of a couple months most.
These guys, like I did for years, refuse to proceed to the logical conclusion because they don’t want to. Yes, it IS their fault. They cannot claim ignorance.
Hope this post doesn’t sound harsh or angry. I’m really not that at all.
I appreciate your posting that video. Among other things, It’s a good reminder that what we all should want is to be faithful to Scripture as best we can.
paulspassingthoughts said, on September 30, 2012 at 9:18 PM
Jeff,
It’s just incredibly interesting that the Reformed tradition holds this doctrine up as the pinnacle of the gospel. J. Gresham Machen’s last words on his death bed proclaimed that there is no hope without the Reformed view of double imputation! Yet, here we have these Reformed guys soundly trouncing it with the truth. Good grief!
Paul,
You wrote: “While the message is love, love, love, joy, joy, joy; we were not greeted by anybody. Never in my life have I seen so many unfriendly people with smiling faces” about visiting new resurgence churches. I know this feeling well. But … I’ve seen a similar thing in churches representing at least 5 other non-reformed denominations as well. The pervasiveness of it leads me to conclude that it’s not necessarily related to Calvinism but to something wrong across the board.
paulspassingthoughts said, on October 1, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Aina,
Exactly. You are correct. In both primary church movements covering the past 62 years, both movements overemphasized justification and ignored sanctification–for all practical purposes treating them as the same thing. This was one of the major topics of our 2012 TANC conference.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Argo –
I would have a question for you. How long did it take fir you to come away from the fog of “SGM” doctrine? Maybe you were one
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Argo –
Let’s try that again.
Honest question — how long did it take you to come out of the SGM doctrine fog? Maybe you were one of the few who saw it and faught it. If not, you may have been steeped in it for some time before you started seeing the errors. The men in the video probably “learned” much at the appropriate seminaries. It takes some time to undo all the extra baggage.
LikeLike
I tend to lean with Argo on this one. I am weary of making excuses for people. We all have the same Word. It is not as if tons of intellectual arguements are not all over the blogosphere. And at the risk of sounding really nit picky, my experience over the last 20 years or so of doctrinal positions has been that people hold them based more upon “experiences” or emulating leaders. I can spot an emulator a mile away anymore. So, I do have to wonder why their conclusions concerning double imputation did not lead them on an obvious journey to even greater truth?
If I went to their website would I find a “covenant” to sign? Whose books are they recommending? I would do it myself but not willing to invest the time. I have also found other NC who do not believe in “double imputation” but DO believe in imputed guilt which basically forces one to arrive at double imputation at some point!
LikeLike
Lydia,
Yes…my point exactly. It isn’t hard to understand that if you refute double imputation you must refute TD and election as well. They don’t see it because they don’t want to.
If obedience matters at all to any “good” purpose (which, how can it since the only ones going to heaven are the elect anyway…so, how does obedience factor in exactly??) then, according to TD and election it MUST be by the Holy Spirit alone. Man cannot have a thing to do with it. I rember the old SGM refrain: all we contribute is our sin. And that is true if you are reformed.
The reason I know these men believe in predestination and TD is because they are self described as reformed.
LikeLike
Bridget,
I was a hard core Calvinist for 15 years, assuming it was humble and loving. When I got wind of the stories of rampant abuse and hypocrisy (which I realize now I chose to ignore for a long time, to my lifetime shame) I concluded it must be the doctrine. Once I realized that, I was able to draw the conclusion that all of it was bullshit within a matter of a couple months most.
These guys, like I did for years, refuse to proceed to the logical conclusion because they don’t want to. Yes, it IS their fault. They cannot claim ignorance.
Hope this post doesn’t sound harsh or angry. I’m really not that at all.
LikeLike
I am not saying they are evil. I am glad they are thinking. But they should know, as PASTORS, that you cannot compromise this doctrine.
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Paul,
I appreciate your posting that video. Among other things, It’s a good reminder that what we all should want is to be faithful to Scripture as best we can.
LikeLike
Jeff,
It’s just incredibly interesting that the Reformed tradition holds this doctrine up as the pinnacle of the gospel. J. Gresham Machen’s last words on his death bed proclaimed that there is no hope without the Reformed view of double imputation! Yet, here we have these Reformed guys soundly trouncing it with the truth. Good grief!
LikeLike
Paul,
You wrote: “While the message is love, love, love, joy, joy, joy; we were not greeted by anybody. Never in my life have I seen so many unfriendly people with smiling faces” about visiting new resurgence churches. I know this feeling well. But … I’ve seen a similar thing in churches representing at least 5 other non-reformed denominations as well. The pervasiveness of it leads me to conclude that it’s not necessarily related to Calvinism but to something wrong across the board.
LikeLike
Aina,
Exactly. You are correct. In both primary church movements covering the past 62 years, both movements overemphasized justification and ignored sanctification–for all practical purposes treating them as the same thing. This was one of the major topics of our 2012 TANC conference.
LikeLike