paulspassingthoughts said, on July 12, 2012 at 7:59 AM
Boloney. HE CLEARLY DISCUSSES SANCTIFICATION AND JUSTIFICATION IN THIS VIDEO AS IF THEY
ARE THE SAME. Elsewhere, ie, “Gospel 101,” he clearly states that we are sanctified by
justification. Because that is what he believes. Also notice that he makes it a point to
not say what kind of University he spoke at in Europe. If it was a Christian college (and
it probably was), it speaks for itself.
The problem many find when they are in a Reformed Church that they are receiving the “progressive justification” teaching in small doses and it is subtly introduced. They will also confuse the listener with terminology so that one will think that the pastor or teacher is way more intelligent then the listener; then the listener ends up not studying Scripture to investigate whether or not the leader is speaking truth. The church is sorely lacking in discernment.
Joel, It’s not my fault that you have called yourself a Calvinist all of these years and didn’t know he taught progressive justification. Worse yet, you entitled your blog “5 Point Salt” not knowing that the first point is the total depravity of the unregenerate as well as the regenerate, and even wrote an article contending against “the total depravity of the saints.” And you feel sorry for me? Really? Let me say something about Washer et al that is nice: they in fact understand thoroughly what Calvin really believed. I will give them that.
Paul Washer went the way of the theonomists and patriarchs. He is hanging with Voddie Baucham and promotes Doug Phillips. Both are cultish. I very much agreed with a lot he said 5 or 6 years ago before he became so famous. And yes, I think the whole seeker movement is shallow and ridiculous. But as with many who take these things on, he goes way overboard.
I was stunned at his wife’s teaching on Esther. Do these guys not realize Esther was forced into a marriage to a PAGAN? Why in the world would we want to mimic her “beauty” treatments that were forced to please a pagan king? Are these people too silly or what?
I could go on and on but he is just another celeb who looked like the real thing. Now he has a mortgageand kids like the rest of us.
If Washer things Doug Phillips and Voddie Baucham are the real thing, that tells me a lot. Not to mention their fascination with all things Puritan. Yeah, the ones who came here and wiped out Native Americans. What great Christians. But that is the beauty of Calvinism. You can claim salvation and live like a bully. Especially if you are a leader. Then you can make a living as a bully.
If he is speaking to believers about sanctification, then, indeed, he is a false teacher. But, from this alone, I can’t tell for sure to whom he is speaking and about what he thinks he’s speaking about.
It’s possible that he’s going over justification with believers or with unbelievers. If so, I see no problem, except that it may be a little advanced for unbelievers. But, as I said, if he thinks he’s speaking about sanctification to believers, there’s a big problem.
Before I had heard of him, someone asked that I watch a video in which he speaks to teenage believers. He laid down the law in no uncertain terms. In fact, I thought he might be something of a legalist. Until now, I have never watched another of his videos, and have read little about him.
JeffB it is so subtle……I did not realize how much I got off track in the church I went to. Things seemed so normal and right, until I started noticing conflicting doctrine. One was “Jesus could not be our friend; we must look at him as always Sovereign”; another was the lack of the Holy Spirit being taught that He lived inside us and was the sanctifying power.
Another was the constant talk of the cross and coming at the foot of the cross- I am sorry I did that once; no need to go there again and again.
I have listened to Paul Washer when I was in the Calvinist trap and remember feeling sadness and depressed. Can you imagine if you are a young person who is a believer and hearing these things? The constant worry about their salvation. I wouldn’t be surprised if you have kids with multiple “salvation” experiences.
I have to correct my last post by saying I definitely feel that Jesus Christ is still Sovereign, but He is a friend to the believer and a lover of our souls.
“If he is speaking to believers about sanctification, then, indeed, he is a false teacher. But, from this alone, I can’t tell for sure to whom he is speaking and about what he thinks he’s speaking about.”
Jeff, You just nailed it without realizing it. WHO are they talking to? This has been a huge problem because they make no distinctions. I used to listen to Piper and wonder if he realized he was talking to believers. I can remember reading Mohler’s stuff and thinking…is he talking about Christians? If he is, things are really bad.
But if he is talking about unbelievers then what is the point? Of course they are doing those things. They need Christ. Tell them about Christ for crying out loud. I mean this wondernig goes back to about 2005. One Piper video is of him being interviewed and he speaks about women who should “take abuse for a season”. And I looked to see what the video was for and it was for pastors. WHAT???? I was stunned. He never once mentioned if the abuser was a believer or not. And that makes a HUGE difference. No she should not take abuse. Her church family should rallya round her and stand up to him.If he is a professing believer he should be held accountable tio work out his salvatio with fear and trembling.
I could give you example after example of this. Another one is Chandler saying he preaches to a depraved congregation every week. Dever has said this too. WHATT??/
They are not that much different than universalists when you get right down to it. They are depraved and sin is normal. We should expect it.
What is missing from these men’s teaching? They indwelling Holy Spirit. And that is for a reason. They want to be our Holy Spirit for us.
“Ah yes, I wondered if someone would reply that way and save me a bunch of time as I am trying to get this blasted DVD project done. Thanks Lin.”
Ha! You know, I wondered for a long time why I found their books and teaching so confusing. I really wanted to understand. It took me a long time to pick up on it. And it came down to my question: When are Christians supposed to look and act like real Christians? Where are “Christians” I can trust? These guys are not addressing that because that is NOT what they are teaching. They are teaching something else altogether. And I asked this question for a long time because I saw so much evil and spiritual abuse done in the Name of Jesus.
In fact, so is most of Christendom. The seekers do it by what they call evangelism which is really church growth. Just get them in. Say you love Jesus and give us money. Poof, you are saved. With the Calvinists you cannot really live out the kingdom NOW because you are totally depraved and unable. (either way, sin is excused)
What is missing? Living as Christ NOW. Too many pastors are defining the “kingdom” as far off when Jesus comes back or with the Calvinists as something impossible to do NOW after salvation. Many times “kingdom” refers to us here NOW. But if folks are growing in holiness, maturing in Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit, they won’t need Piper, Mohler, Dever, Chandler, Mahaney etc.
My guess is that we are seeing another historical cycle of the rise of the Nicolaitans. And we know what Christ said about them in Revelation.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch .
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I know Paul. He does not believe in progressive justification. You have taken what he said out of context…
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Boloney. HE CLEARLY DISCUSSES SANCTIFICATION AND JUSTIFICATION IN THIS VIDEO AS IF THEY
ARE THE SAME. Elsewhere, ie, “Gospel 101,” he clearly states that we are sanctified by
justification. Because that is what he believes. Also notice that he makes it a point to
not say what kind of University he spoke at in Europe. If it was a Christian college (and
it probably was), it speaks for itself.
LikeLike
The problem many find when they are in a Reformed Church that they are receiving the “progressive justification” teaching in small doses and it is subtly introduced. They will also confuse the listener with terminology so that one will think that the pastor or teacher is way more intelligent then the listener; then the listener ends up not studying Scripture to investigate whether or not the leader is speaking truth. The church is sorely lacking in discernment.
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On your first point: yep. Second point: yep, yep. Third point: yeppers.
> —–Original Message—– >
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This is such a lie. Worse, based on ignorance. I know Paul, and I feel sorry for you.
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Joel, It’s not my fault that you have called yourself a Calvinist all of these years and didn’t know he taught progressive justification. Worse yet, you entitled your blog “5 Point Salt” not knowing that the first point is the total depravity of the unregenerate as well as the regenerate, and even wrote an article contending against “the total depravity of the saints.” And you feel sorry for me? Really? Let me say something about Washer et al that is nice: they in fact understand thoroughly what Calvin really believed. I will give them that.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Paul Washer went the way of the theonomists and patriarchs. He is hanging with Voddie Baucham and promotes Doug Phillips. Both are cultish. I very much agreed with a lot he said 5 or 6 years ago before he became so famous. And yes, I think the whole seeker movement is shallow and ridiculous. But as with many who take these things on, he goes way overboard.
I was stunned at his wife’s teaching on Esther. Do these guys not realize Esther was forced into a marriage to a PAGAN? Why in the world would we want to mimic her “beauty” treatments that were forced to please a pagan king? Are these people too silly or what?
I could go on and on but he is just another celeb who looked like the real thing. Now he has a mortgageand kids like the rest of us.
If Washer things Doug Phillips and Voddie Baucham are the real thing, that tells me a lot. Not to mention their fascination with all things Puritan. Yeah, the ones who came here and wiped out Native Americans. What great Christians. But that is the beauty of Calvinism. You can claim salvation and live like a bully. Especially if you are a leader. Then you can make a living as a bully.
LikeLike
If he is speaking to believers about sanctification, then, indeed, he is a false teacher. But, from this alone, I can’t tell for sure to whom he is speaking and about what he thinks he’s speaking about.
It’s possible that he’s going over justification with believers or with unbelievers. If so, I see no problem, except that it may be a little advanced for unbelievers. But, as I said, if he thinks he’s speaking about sanctification to believers, there’s a big problem.
Before I had heard of him, someone asked that I watch a video in which he speaks to teenage believers. He laid down the law in no uncertain terms. In fact, I thought he might be something of a legalist. Until now, I have never watched another of his videos, and have read little about him.
I’ll take a look at “Gospel 101.”
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JeffB it is so subtle……I did not realize how much I got off track in the church I went to. Things seemed so normal and right, until I started noticing conflicting doctrine. One was “Jesus could not be our friend; we must look at him as always Sovereign”; another was the lack of the Holy Spirit being taught that He lived inside us and was the sanctifying power.
Another was the constant talk of the cross and coming at the foot of the cross- I am sorry I did that once; no need to go there again and again.
I have listened to Paul Washer when I was in the Calvinist trap and remember feeling sadness and depressed. Can you imagine if you are a young person who is a believer and hearing these things? The constant worry about their salvation. I wouldn’t be surprised if you have kids with multiple “salvation” experiences.
LikeLike
I have to correct my last post by saying I definitely feel that Jesus Christ is still Sovereign, but He is a friend to the believer and a lover of our souls.
LikeLike
“If he is speaking to believers about sanctification, then, indeed, he is a false teacher. But, from this alone, I can’t tell for sure to whom he is speaking and about what he thinks he’s speaking about.”
Jeff, You just nailed it without realizing it. WHO are they talking to? This has been a huge problem because they make no distinctions. I used to listen to Piper and wonder if he realized he was talking to believers. I can remember reading Mohler’s stuff and thinking…is he talking about Christians? If he is, things are really bad.
But if he is talking about unbelievers then what is the point? Of course they are doing those things. They need Christ. Tell them about Christ for crying out loud. I mean this wondernig goes back to about 2005. One Piper video is of him being interviewed and he speaks about women who should “take abuse for a season”. And I looked to see what the video was for and it was for pastors. WHAT???? I was stunned. He never once mentioned if the abuser was a believer or not. And that makes a HUGE difference. No she should not take abuse. Her church family should rallya round her and stand up to him.If he is a professing believer he should be held accountable tio work out his salvatio with fear and trembling.
I could give you example after example of this. Another one is Chandler saying he preaches to a depraved congregation every week. Dever has said this too. WHATT??/
They are not that much different than universalists when you get right down to it. They are depraved and sin is normal. We should expect it.
What is missing from these men’s teaching? They indwelling Holy Spirit. And that is for a reason. They want to be our Holy Spirit for us.
LikeLike
Ah yes, I wondered if someone would reply that way and save me a bunch of time as I am trying to get this blasted DVD project done. Thanks Lin.
> —–Original Message—– >
LikeLike
“Ah yes, I wondered if someone would reply that way and save me a bunch of time as I am trying to get this blasted DVD project done. Thanks Lin.”
Ha! You know, I wondered for a long time why I found their books and teaching so confusing. I really wanted to understand. It took me a long time to pick up on it. And it came down to my question: When are Christians supposed to look and act like real Christians? Where are “Christians” I can trust? These guys are not addressing that because that is NOT what they are teaching. They are teaching something else altogether. And I asked this question for a long time because I saw so much evil and spiritual abuse done in the Name of Jesus.
In fact, so is most of Christendom. The seekers do it by what they call evangelism which is really church growth. Just get them in. Say you love Jesus and give us money. Poof, you are saved. With the Calvinists you cannot really live out the kingdom NOW because you are totally depraved and unable. (either way, sin is excused)
What is missing? Living as Christ NOW. Too many pastors are defining the “kingdom” as far off when Jesus comes back or with the Calvinists as something impossible to do NOW after salvation. Many times “kingdom” refers to us here NOW. But if folks are growing in holiness, maturing in Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit, they won’t need Piper, Mohler, Dever, Chandler, Mahaney etc.
My guess is that we are seeing another historical cycle of the rise of the Nicolaitans. And we know what Christ said about them in Revelation.
LikeLike