I’m Just Sayin’…..
“When the ground of justification moves from Christ outside of us to the work of Christ inside of us, the gospel (and the human soul) is imperiled. It is an upside down gospel.”
~ John Piper
“When the ground of justification moves from Christ outside of us to the work of Christ inside of us, the gospel (and the human soul) is imperiled. It is an upside down gospel.”
~ John Piper
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
“One thing that would help you people is focus. If only you could learn to focus on what a person is saying, not on what you suppose he must be saying in your view, you might actually be able to understand what others are saying. I’m just saying. ”
Sigh. This is the same old game. We ARE focusing on what you write. But when we do that, you come back and say that is not what you meant or claim that we did not understand you. This is going on all over the blogosphere with the NC crowd. On one thread on Denny Burke’s blog (Dean at SBTS), there were over 1000+ comments on what Bruce Ware meant in a sermon series he did a few years back. Seriously? Ware is paid to teach and preach. To communicate to the masses, truth. But you should have seen the comments trying to explain what he meant!
this happens all the time with the NC crowd. It is just that over 1000 comments was rare but then, Burke erased them because too many people were nailing Ware in his “clear teaching” that was not clear.
This is where the authoritarianism and mysticism comes in. Only a select few can really understand these great things of God. The peasants are ignorant and must have the great celebrities explain it for them. Nevermind that inconvenient Holy Spirit Who is the Best Teacher……even for peasants in the priesthood.
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Lydia, I like the one where you can’t criticize anyone unless you have read all they have written. LOL! Piper has written about 600 books! Frank Turk pulled that one on me–I had no right to criticize Piper because I hadn’t read everything the guy wrote. Unbelievable.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Paul or Lydia,
I was wondering. What’s your opinion on that New Covenant Theology bunch. I saw your comment about Jon Zens sometime back, and his connection with New Calvinists and New Covenant Theology. Would you say the New Covenant Theologians or on-board with the New Calvinism and the Objective Centrality of the Reductionist Gospel? Thanks.
Arkansas Bill
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Bill, I will answer that with a word file since you are on the committee. It’s the rough draft, Chapter5, “The New Covenant Theology Connection.”
> —–Original Message—– >
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Bill, Comin’ your way as we speak.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Bill,
I mainly know Zens through his egalitarian writing. I have also enjoyed his “Four Tragic Shifts…” article. Here is a link:
http://www.searchingtogether.org/articles/4tragic.htm
I agree with him about the historical institutionalization of the body of Christ. And I mainly found him after reading Pagan Christianity years ago which I really enjoyed and had come to many of the same conclusions in my own study. So much of what we do is tradition and keeps members of the body from functioning in their gifts. Traditionally, the function of pastor has been blown way out of porportion in the body. That was what I saw Zens focusing on back then. I had no idea about the SDA stuff.
But I also saw some weirdness that was hard to explain. Some of it came from an interaction he had with a friend of mine which I do not have permission to go into here. Here is some of the weirdness about the OT:
http://www.searchingtogether.org/blog/?p=21
(Please keep in mind, I am not one of those mindless left behind people. I think Jews are lost and we must witness to them. I abhor escatology fights because I simply do not know and both sides make good arguments!). I am mainly sharing this article for how he frames the OT and not for his views of escatology..
here is the bottomline. I found a lot to agree with Zens and with Frank Viola. But there are some things that bother me, too. Viola has dabbled in the contemplative prayer stuff in recent years.
I have found this to be the case with most known preachers/teachers of the Word: Stuff I really agree with and stuff I have trouble with. For this reason, I do not think we were meant to follow any one human’s teachings. We are to study to show ourselves approved and question one another. We are to be Bereans. We were not made to be pew sitters, listening to one guy interpret scripture for us week after week. I like the 1 Corin 14 model where several speak and others judge. I think we mature with that model. But good luck finding it.
But after many years of studying, I mainly look to see what these teachers of the Word are teaching a room full (or stadium full) of professing believers (many are pastors!) about the Holy Spirit. Amazing how He is hardly ever mentioned.
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“Even if not every act of a believer is tainted by sin, do we ever sin in the performance of some of our best acts? If so, do we need forgiveness for those sins? If God forgives us, on what basis does He do so?”
Are you suggesting here that the Holy Spirit would not convict us that something was sinful? That, as believers, we can sin and not know it when we have the indwelling Holy Spirit?
I actually did answer this trick question above. I said that IF we are saved (Justified) then we ARE being sanctified. If we are in sanctification, we have been Justified and are sins are forgiven. There will never be one without the other but they are two different things.
I cannot speak for you, Paul or anyone else but if I continue to “practice” the same sins over and over for years expecting forgivness each time, then I am behaving as if there was no sacrifice. I am not a new creature in Christ. (Keep in mind I said “practicing” sin…as in knowing the truth and sinning anyway) It would mean the Holy Spirit is either not convicting me of the sins or I am ignoring the Holy Spirit and willfully sinning. Either way, I should work out my salvation with fear and trembling! The beauty of the Holy Spirit is that as we mature in Christ, we sin less and less but never reaching perfection. Christ said he would present a “pure bride”….. to Himself not a perfect one. But a “pure one”. What does “pure” mean? It goes back to the sermon on the mount, doesn’t it?
But I am born into a corrupted body and live on a corrupted earth. My very thoughts are sinful so I never escape but I do strive to be Holy and walk in the light and take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ. I have a long way to go but I think it mocks Christ to brag about being sinful or to glory in sin which I see everywhere today. I call it the Bill Clinton doctrine. As in “oh, they are really human! They sin!”. I often wonder when us Christians are expected to actualy show some fruit of salvation? Me included!
Answer my question: Can an adult who claims to be a born again believer with the indwelling Holy Spirit rape a child over and over? SGM says yes. What say you?
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John 1:9 says if we confess our sin he will also cleanse us of what we aren’t aware of. Also, that is in a sanctification context and speaks to forgiveness to restore our relationship with Him as children—not forgiveness for justification.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Do all you folks believe that Jesus did not act as a penal substitute for believers so that he was judicially separated from the Father and suffered in his infinite person the equivalent of what we deserved as sinners?
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“If according to your words, “we sin less and less but never reaching perfection,” do we not need God’s forgiveness for those sins? If those sins are JUSTLY forgiven, on what just basis was that accomplished? I’m not trying to trick you. I just want an honest and obvious answer.”
And it has been given over and over.
Listen close:
We already have His forgiveness IF we are being sanctified…because when we are in sanctification….. WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED. But we must be in sanctification…that is an indicator of salvation!
They are two different things but one never is one without the other.
So, what do we do when “believers” who claim to be Justified continue practicing willful sin? Do you tell them that Jesus Christ is obeying FOR them? Or that their practicing of sins are forgiven even though they show no fruit of salvation? In fact, many churches do just this! It is a huge problem. It is why child molesters are considered the same as their victims by many.
Are we really saved and to become new creatures in Christ to practice, sin and more sin? What a mockery of the cross and the Holy Spirit.
We have already had a ridiculous circular argument about 1 Corin 5 and your interpretation of it. I am shocked Paul did not tell the pervert that Jesus Christ was obeying for him and no need to worry.
Now answer my question. yes, child rape is serious. I wish SGM and Mahaney’s defenders like Dever, Mohler and Duncan thought the same way. So, can a professing adult believer have the indwelling Holy Spirit and rape a child over and over?
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“Do all you folks believe that Jesus did not act as a penal substitute for believers so that he was judicially separated from the Father and suffered in his infinite person the equivalent of what we deserved as sinners?”
Oh, I have one for you…
Do you believe that Jesus went to the Cross so we could be comfortable with continued sinning?
Sheesh!~
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“Lydia, I like the one where you can’t criticize anyone unless you have read all they have written. LOL! Piper has written about 600 books! Frank Turk pulled that one on me–I had no right to criticize Piper because I hadn’t read everything the guy wrote.”
I missed this one earlier. Yes, I have heard this one many times. As if there is some magic line in one of those books that is going to explain it all and you have to find it. Nevermind, he makes his living communicating to the masses about truth.
Frank Turk is one of the Pyro guys and they have become very arrogant. Just more people who make their living off ministry and Christian market.
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This quote sounds erroneous:
“Do all you folks believe that Jesus did not act as a penal substitute for believers so that he was JUDICIALLY SEPARATED from the Father and suffered in his infinite person the equivalent of what we deserved as sinners?”
In the Atonement Mystery Christ remains human and divine without sin blemishes. He is the connecting link between God and Man. He was given a “passable body” capable of death. After death, He offered His blood “unblemished” on the atonement seat in the Holy of Holies of heaven. He undoubtedly took the PENAL/JUDICIAL HIT for our sins, made full satisfaction, but He personally, in His soul, knew no sin. He was put to death in the BODY, but there was no spiritual sin, death, and separation from the Father. God the Father was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. The Trinity has always been together, always will be together, in an unbreakable alliance. The Unity is eternally unchangeable! One God, now and forever. Amen.
At death, our spirit separates from the body. It appears, that’s what happened to Christ. I deserved eternal suffering and separation from God because of sin. I don’t think Christ suffered and was separated an equivalent of eternity in hell. Whatever Christ did in the substitutionary dieing it made full satisfaction with the Father. We are sometimes not privy to every detail of God’s workings. Praise God!
Arkansas Bill
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Further thoughts on the atonement comments.
I don’t know what someone ment by “JUDICIALLY SEPARATED.” Maybe it ment this:
Somehow, Christ always remained united in obedient love with the Father but also assumed us in the condition of our sin and alienation from the Father. The connection is close, so close He could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you abandon me?” Christ apparently made solidarity with us miserable sinners and so the Father did not spare his own Son, but gave Him up for us all to be reconciled to Himself through His Son’s death.
This mystery is way over my head…… but I sure appreciate it! Amazing Love!
Arkansas Bill
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