I’m Just Sayin’…..
“When the ground of justification moves from Christ outside of us to the work of Christ inside of us, the gospel (and the human soul) is imperiled. It is an upside down gospel.”
~ John Piper
“When the ground of justification moves from Christ outside of us to the work of Christ inside of us, the gospel (and the human soul) is imperiled. It is an upside down gospel.”
~ John Piper
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
“I believe in just going by the pattern of Scripture. Not everything we do is “filty rags” before God. This “filthy rags” thinking leads to great confusion. It makes it look like God sees no difference between righteousness and wickedness.”
This is exactly the confusion that comes out of SGM. I can give you clear examples of this thinking. Story after story on the sgmsurvivors blog bear this out. A child molested by a another member of sgm (or even parent). The pastor says not to call the police as it must be handled within the church. Pastor tells parents of victim they are also sinners but have the opportunity to forgive the molester. They say the molester will be accountable to them but they think it is worse sin to break up families by bringing in the secular authorities.
So, the victims must see their sin as heinous as the molesters.
That is an example of the confusion that comes from this teaching in practice. SGM teaches that God sees no difference between the parents of the victim (in some cases 3 year old girl molested) and the molester. Is this true?
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“This
is, of course, accomplished for us believers by our vital union with Christ.” No Randy, Christ doesn’t obey for us.”
I wish He did! But alas, He does not. Haven’t these guys ever been led by the Holy Spirit to do something but ignored it? I have! And hated it. See, there is a part of this sanctification process I must “do”.
I can choose not to pray. Not to study. Not to be compassionate. Not to help others. Jesus is NOT doing those things for me when I am not doing them. How silly. The world only sees me NOT doing them when I claim to be Born Again. Should I tell them, oh, Jesus is doing them for me….you just do not see it. You only see a selfish person who claims she is Born Again but has very little fruit.
A good tree does not produce bad fruit.
This is why SGM can have sinful molesters and sinful victims and both are viewed the same. In fact, I am wondering why the SGM pastors can point this out since THEY are heinous sinners, too. What right do they have? :o)
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Lydia,
Yo Lydia, I have asked Paul to write for me. How is the weather there? It is soooooooo hot here in the CR.
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I should have never said the following: Paul! Paul! delete it immediately!
“No problem Randy. Done.”
Thank you soooo much my brother.
Randy
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“If as Paul says, we don’t need the good news of Christ’s redeeming work any longer, there must be some other basis for this JUST forgiveness other than Christ’s redeeming work. If the basis is His redeeming work. then is that not His obedience for us being put to our account in a post justification experience? No telling how the great twister of truth will mangle this statement, but I gave it my best shot.”
It is not a question of not “needing the redeeming work of Christ” any longer. These are word games. In fact, there is NO redeeming work of Christ if we are not in sanctification. A good tree does not bear bad fruit. Can one be saved and never be a “new creature in Christ”?
“If the basis is His redeeming work. then is that not His obedience for us being put to our account in a post justification experience”
So I can continue in sin,,,even sin more because of his redeeming work in Justification? As SGM teaches, I am the same as the child molester who professes Christ, too.
What do you do with all the passages that say “be Holy” or the ones that give lists of things we ‘should not do’ or the ones that say we should ‘imitate Christ’. These are things we should “do” or “don’t do” with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The function of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life is missing from NC teaching. Period.
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Lydia,
Look at the chart I posted this morning; they teach that Christ obeys for us through Gospel Contemplationism. I will begin editing Randy’s comments in 5 minutes.
> —–Original Message—– >
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“When Paul alters the statements of Anon. To read “Anonymous said,. . . .” when in reality that is not what he said at all, he is really lying isn’t he? Why, then do you not believe he would be willing to lie about other matters, simply to further his agenda? :
Because I do not follow man. I have been listening to and reading the NC preachers and leaders for years. I do not have to agree with Paul concerning what he does with comments in order to understand what these preachers in the new Reformed movement are teaching. I know it first hand. I found the same lack of teaching on the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctification that the seekers simply ignore.
And I have a theory about their “agenda” which is to gain followers after themselves who tithe, buy books, attend conferences, etc. It is a huge business. But it would not work if people understood sanctification….they would rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them instead of these charlatans. Jesus said He was sending the Best Teacher: The Holy Spirit. That is a problem for them. They want us to need them.
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“And I have a theory about their “agenda” which is to gain followers after themselves who tithe, buy books, attend conferences, etc. It is a huge business. But it would not work if people understood sanctification….they would rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them instead of these charlatans. Jesus said He was sending the Best Teacher: The Holy Spirit. That is a problem for them. They want us to need them.” Couldn’t say it better myself.
> —–Original Message—– >
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“I doubt if you will see this statement as I wrote it, but I am going to give it a shot. When you sin, [I assume you still do] If you confess your sin, on what basis does God JUSTLY forgive your sin and cleanse you from all unrighteousness? It is my view that entire passage is written to believers and our communion with God, walking in the light as He is in the light etc.”
Keep reading in 1 John. You are forgetting the last 2 chapters. Hebrews 10: 26-31 is also written to professing believers.
If I continue practicing sin willfully, then I am saying there is no sacrifice. Walking in the light denotes a lifestyle. How we live….what we do or don’t do.
The false dichonomy of sinless perfection/sinful living is a red herring introduced so tht anyone who seeks to be righteous is accused of sinless perfection and are not admitting they are a sinner. My very thoughts are sinful so what does that mean if I continue to “practice” those thoughts in actions and claim to be saved?
So, like what sgm/Mahaney teaches, there is no difference between me and the child molester who also professes Christ.
So, if I seek to be Holy, then I am doing “works salvation”?. I should stop trying to be Christlike or to imitate Christ because He is doing that for me? So what does that look like in real life? We are seeing it right before our eyes and it is not pretty. Christians look more like the world and in some cases, like sgm where molesters are like the rest of us, even worse.
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“Look at the chart I posted this morning; they teach that Christ obeys for us through Gospel Contemplationism”
the Desert Fathers?. These guys are taking us back to the mystics.
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“I guess it didn’t matter whether you saw what I wrote or not. So far, both you and Paul have neglected to answer my simple question. You then continue to assume I believe things I don’t believe and impute to me things I have not said.”
Right. You have been playing the semantic game. The same one played over and over where we do not understand your words and the words of the preachers PAID to communicate to the masses are misunderstood over and over and over again.
“I have not drawn a false dichotomy between sinless perfection and sinful living, Those are your words. Assuming you don’t believe in sinless perfection, your sins must be forgiven if you are to walk in communion with a holy God. 1 John 1:9 states that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and JUST to forgive our sins. . . . On what basis can He JUSTLY forgive our sins, if not based on the redeeming work of His Son? It simply occurs to me that if we are even now, as believers, forgiven on the basis of Christ’s redeeming work, we never outlive our need for the cross. That is the question I would like you to interact with.”
Did not assume anything. You alluded to sinless perfection earlier when you said,’ I guess you don’t sin anymore’. This is the great red herring of NC teaching. What you are missing above in the rest of your comment is what happens when we willfully practice sin yet profess Christ?
What are we saying as professed believers when there is no fruit of salvation? It means we MOCK the Cross. It means we do not really believe in the New Birth, the power of the Holy Spirit or being New Creatures in Christ. As I said, read the rest of 1 John.
One of the problems with NC teaching is that we allow the celebrity teachers to frame the questions that must be interacted wth. I saw this same problem when they teach ESS. And with that, terms and words are redefined.
If I am saved,I am in sanctification. if I am being sanctification, I am saved(Justified) and therefore my sins are forgiven. And sanctification is synergistic. I am to “imitate” Christ. I am to “be Holy”. I am not to do certain things such as the list of bad things we see in Galatians.
Salvation is free. It cannot be earned by any works. Sanctification is not easy. It can look like death or loserville to the world (there goes Piper’s “Joy”.) It is dying to self. It is all the “one anothers” in scripture.
Perhaps you could tell me how a child molester can have the indwelling Holy Spirit as Mahaney claims?
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“The question is whether that action is lying. And we do know where liars will spend eternity. So the question is, Is Paul’s behavior deceptive behavior or not? Simple question that needs a simple answer.”
Deceptive? when he tells everyone in comments he is altering your comments? If he altered your comments and did not tell us, yes, that would be deceptive and lying about you.
Personally, I would let them stand. They are perfect examples of why NC is so confusing and full of redefining terms.
“The other part of my question is not whether you follow him or not but “Why, do you not believe he would be willing to lie about other matters. . . .?” I know he has lied about me. I would never trust him to tell the truth about anything.”
How has he “lied” about you? He made it known he was altering your comments.
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Because the stinkin spam filter doesn’t work half the time on WordPress,
> —–Original Message—– >
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