“I don’t believe Christians are totally depraved. I just want someone to show me where someone has said believers are totally depraved. I just want to see or hear one statement. I don’t think that is too much to ask”
I have already explained this several times in different threads. How about you show me some of their sermons or talks where they focus on the post resurrection indwelling Holy Spirit in a believer’s life where they are in sanctification and growing in Holiness.
“Paul told me he is no longer a sinner, he is now a new creature. That just doesn’t track with 1 Jn. 1.”
You have to read ALL of 1 John.
“I do not argue that believers have not undergone a radical change. What I have argued is that we never outgrow our need for the saving and forgiving grace of God purchased for us on Calvary. If God is JUST to forgive our sins as believers, on what basis is he just if not on the basis of Christ’s redeeming work. Paul doesn’t need the gospel anymore. He has already been justified. Funny, that the Apostle went on boasting in the cross.”
It is a simple matter of what they focus on and who their audience is. As I pointed out in another thread, is the perverts in John Piper;s video a professing believer or not? Piper never tells us. Why? Isn’t it important? Is he telling us that a pervert is saved? Yet, Piper talks about church discipline. He does not mention 1 Corin 5 as the proper course. As Paul advised, “So the guy could be saved”!!!
Yet, Piper gives us the impression that he thinks a Born Again believer can be a pervert who asks his wife to be in a threesome. Do you not see it? You want quotes? There is ONE example. But it is not good enough for you. But of course, we can spend all day parsing what Piper meant. And that is the problem with all of it.
At SGM survivors blog, we see this played out hundreds of times with tons of stories. The pervert is just a sinner like the rest of us. Really? The child molester is saved? SGM pastors think child molesters are saved?
This is another Gospel. I do not recognize it. It makes me very sad that people think it is the full Gospel.
I have read all of 1 John. Do believers go on living in sin with abandon as we did prior to conversion? Of course not! Can believers fall into grievous sin and continue in it for a time? Of course they can. Do we ever outgrow our need for the pardoning grace of God? Never!
If Piper suggested the guy needed discipline, he must have some concern for sanctification in the lives of professing Christians. Otherwise, he would have told him there was no problem since he had already been justified.
Please watch the video Paul posted yesterday about porn and tell me if there is a shred of evidence that Piper and friends were indifferent to this sin and had no interest in helping people out of it. If surely seemed to me they were talking about how people could be delivered from porn.
You do need to understand that God’s people are not glorified yet. I am not arguing that a person can go on habitually living in sin, What I am arguing is that we all fall and need forgiveness. Paul continues to bear false witness against me and refuses to repent. Do you think he is a believer?
I am still waiting for someone to show me a quote where one of these guys says believers are totally depraved. That is a far cry from saying we are still “sinners” or even “wicked sinners.” If we are still totally depraved, we could not have believed the gospel in the first place.
“Can you cite me an example of the present tense of eimi being used as a past tense?”
No. I was only looking at the range of word meanings in the Greek. I am not one who thinks translators are infallible. I actually perfer linguists to theologians who might have agenda’s. We should take a closer look at the word “protos” and why it is translated as chief instead of “former”.
It can also be translated as “Before-most” or former. I think Paul is making the case of what a horrible sinner he was. I also believe that once we are saved and as we grow in Holiness, we discover over and over the depths of our former sin. I do not believe that a Born Again believer willfully practices sin daily. Now, I realize that thinking will thin our ranks considerably. Does not do much for the baptism numers or movement numbers. I simply do not agree with Piper or Mahaney that perverts need to be disciplined. I think they need 1 Corin 5. They need to be saved.
But you have not acknowledged that Paul was still not throwing people in prison for The Way after he was saved. You have not acknowledged that Paul was not doing the same things he was doing before he was saved. Why? Was he committing other horrible sins against God after he was saved? Can you make that case?
Well, 1 Cor 5 is discipline of the radial sort and during the discipline the sinner is considered an unbeliever..
I am not at all suggesting that Paul was carrying on his former lifestyle, simply that he was still a sinner. Maybe you don’t commit sins, but I know I still do. I think 1 Jn 9 would be meaningless if we didn’t.
It is a good point you raise about “protos.” I will check it out.
Randy, As far as I can tell, they are doing the same thing the seekers do in practice. They are dumbing down sin but for different reasons
. I watched the video. First of all, why do they ignore 1 Corin 5. Paul has a list! He also makes clear he is NOT talking about the world. He is talking about professing believers who do such things.
I can tell you my own porn story in a large church. The wife of a high level staffer came to the elders and said her husband was addicted to porn. They found he had been looking at porn on his office computer for years! They did the church discipline stuff (mainly to keep it quiet) with accountability, etc. After a year of this, the wife came to them and said she was going to make it public because he was still doing it. (Nevermind how this affected her relationship with him. She was not all that important to the situation). So, they fired him but on the contractural promise he would go quietly.
Now, In my view, the guy was not saved. This was willful, deliberate sin. It was “practicing” sin. Even daily. That is not “falling” because he had no godly sorrow. He was just sad he got caught. Did they really care about the guy’s eternal life? No. If they had they would have followed scripture and realized that A. He was practicing sin and B) he should be kicked out so he could be saved. As Paul termed it: Turn him over to Satan.
The elders did not “love” this man. They did not “love” his wife. They did not care about his eternal life.
(we can still love them even though they are kicked out of the Body)
So, my question to you is, was he ever really saved at all? A good tree does not bear bad fruit. He looked real good on stage. Said all the right things but had rotten fruit that only his wife knew about for years. And she wanted the mortgage paid, too! Until she could not take it anymore.
Why are you assuming these types just “fall” for a while? Can the Holy Spirit dwell in your heart and look at the porn at the same time?
Sanctification can look like brokenness. We have real godly sorrow for such sin. Why couldn’t the “learned men” who are supposed to know scripture say to him, “Based on what we know, we do not think you are saved at all. You must leave us and we pray you are saved. It worked for the 1 Corin 5 guy. In fact, Paul had to tell the church to give him a break later on in 2 Corin.
What bothers me the most about all this aberrent teaching is that it seems no one believes in the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver us from such things. He CAN and DOES. But it is not taught much anymore.
So, we go on telling perverts and consistent willful sinners that they are saved, We lie to them. And one reason we do this is because we say all sin is the same. SGM tells young victims of molesters (who profess Christ) they are sinners, too, just like the molester. This is a horror.
“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
We are not supposed to act like wickedness is normal for a believer.
Here’s a Piper quote related to this thread of comments. Note his answer as he addresses a question regarding total depravity of the “elect”: “Does being totally depraved mean we’re always sinning? Yes.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO7u4VRc1pU
“am not at all suggesting that Paul was carrying on his former lifestyle, simply that he was still a sinner. Maybe you don’t commit sins, but I know I still do. I think 1 Jn 9 would be meaningless if we didn’t.”
Randy, Logic is allowed in Christianity. I know many think it is isn’t. Ok, let’s parse this “sin thing”. I yelled at my daughter the other day. It was sin. I felt horrible and apologized to her and told her I was convicted at how selfish it was. So, I am a sinner. Yes! I even have bad thoughts! I work to take them captive and make them obedient and will have to do so until I am taken to Glory.
Now, The molester attends church, is considered a member in good standing and rapes his 10 year old daughter several times per month. He is a sinner, too. But is he saved? Is he willfully and consistently sining with the knowledge of truth? Yes. He knows it is a sin. Hebrews says about him: There was no sacrifice.
Let us understand for once and for all that practicing sin is not something we should blow off so casually to say, “we are all sinners”. No, believers are not consistently viewing porn or molesting their daughters. . It is serious business as in eternal life.
Yes, 1 John is right. I am a sinner and if I do not admit it, I am a liar. But I have to ask, do you think verse 9 means we continue doing the same sins over and over and simply confess them each time to get them struck off some cosmic list? Driscoll does this.
Please go read the rest of John…it is speaking to believers…here are some snippets:
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. ******6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him******. (Does this contradict the 1st Chapter where we are all sinners?)
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.******* 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.*******
As long as a person is practicing sin, he is to be considered an unbeliever unless and until he repents. Do I know whether he is a believer or not? NO. Still, I must assume he is not until he gives evidence to the contrary.
It seemed to me the what was being discussed on the video was in reference to people who were battling this sin, not people who were enjoying it with relish. I think that is an important distinction.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
“I don’t believe Christians are totally depraved. I just want someone to show me where someone has said believers are totally depraved. I just want to see or hear one statement. I don’t think that is too much to ask”
I have already explained this several times in different threads. How about you show me some of their sermons or talks where they focus on the post resurrection indwelling Holy Spirit in a believer’s life where they are in sanctification and growing in Holiness.
“Paul told me he is no longer a sinner, he is now a new creature. That just doesn’t track with 1 Jn. 1.”
You have to read ALL of 1 John.
“I do not argue that believers have not undergone a radical change. What I have argued is that we never outgrow our need for the saving and forgiving grace of God purchased for us on Calvary. If God is JUST to forgive our sins as believers, on what basis is he just if not on the basis of Christ’s redeeming work. Paul doesn’t need the gospel anymore. He has already been justified. Funny, that the Apostle went on boasting in the cross.”
It is a simple matter of what they focus on and who their audience is. As I pointed out in another thread, is the perverts in John Piper;s video a professing believer or not? Piper never tells us. Why? Isn’t it important? Is he telling us that a pervert is saved? Yet, Piper talks about church discipline. He does not mention 1 Corin 5 as the proper course. As Paul advised, “So the guy could be saved”!!!
Yet, Piper gives us the impression that he thinks a Born Again believer can be a pervert who asks his wife to be in a threesome. Do you not see it? You want quotes? There is ONE example. But it is not good enough for you. But of course, we can spend all day parsing what Piper meant. And that is the problem with all of it.
At SGM survivors blog, we see this played out hundreds of times with tons of stories. The pervert is just a sinner like the rest of us. Really? The child molester is saved? SGM pastors think child molesters are saved?
This is another Gospel. I do not recognize it. It makes me very sad that people think it is the full Gospel.
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Lydia,
I have read all of 1 John. Do believers go on living in sin with abandon as we did prior to conversion? Of course not! Can believers fall into grievous sin and continue in it for a time? Of course they can. Do we ever outgrow our need for the pardoning grace of God? Never!
If Piper suggested the guy needed discipline, he must have some concern for sanctification in the lives of professing Christians. Otherwise, he would have told him there was no problem since he had already been justified.
Please watch the video Paul posted yesterday about porn and tell me if there is a shred of evidence that Piper and friends were indifferent to this sin and had no interest in helping people out of it. If surely seemed to me they were talking about how people could be delivered from porn.
You do need to understand that God’s people are not glorified yet. I am not arguing that a person can go on habitually living in sin, What I am arguing is that we all fall and need forgiveness. Paul continues to bear false witness against me and refuses to repent. Do you think he is a believer?
Randy
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Lydia,
Can you cite me an example of the present tense of eimi being used as a past tense?
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I am still waiting for someone to show me a quote where one of these guys says believers are totally depraved. That is a far cry from saying we are still “sinners” or even “wicked sinners.” If we are still totally depraved, we could not have believed the gospel in the first place.
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“Can you cite me an example of the present tense of eimi being used as a past tense?”
No. I was only looking at the range of word meanings in the Greek. I am not one who thinks translators are infallible. I actually perfer linguists to theologians who might have agenda’s. We should take a closer look at the word “protos” and why it is translated as chief instead of “former”.
It can also be translated as “Before-most” or former. I think Paul is making the case of what a horrible sinner he was. I also believe that once we are saved and as we grow in Holiness, we discover over and over the depths of our former sin. I do not believe that a Born Again believer willfully practices sin daily. Now, I realize that thinking will thin our ranks considerably. Does not do much for the baptism numers or movement numbers. I simply do not agree with Piper or Mahaney that perverts need to be disciplined. I think they need 1 Corin 5. They need to be saved.
But you have not acknowledged that Paul was still not throwing people in prison for The Way after he was saved. You have not acknowledged that Paul was not doing the same things he was doing before he was saved. Why? Was he committing other horrible sins against God after he was saved? Can you make that case?
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Lydia,
Well, 1 Cor 5 is discipline of the radial sort and during the discipline the sinner is considered an unbeliever..
I am not at all suggesting that Paul was carrying on his former lifestyle, simply that he was still a sinner. Maybe you don’t commit sins, but I know I still do. I think 1 Jn 9 would be meaningless if we didn’t.
It is a good point you raise about “protos.” I will check it out.
Randy
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Randy, As far as I can tell, they are doing the same thing the seekers do in practice. They are dumbing down sin but for different reasons
. I watched the video. First of all, why do they ignore 1 Corin 5. Paul has a list! He also makes clear he is NOT talking about the world. He is talking about professing believers who do such things.
I can tell you my own porn story in a large church. The wife of a high level staffer came to the elders and said her husband was addicted to porn. They found he had been looking at porn on his office computer for years! They did the church discipline stuff (mainly to keep it quiet) with accountability, etc. After a year of this, the wife came to them and said she was going to make it public because he was still doing it. (Nevermind how this affected her relationship with him. She was not all that important to the situation). So, they fired him but on the contractural promise he would go quietly.
Now, In my view, the guy was not saved. This was willful, deliberate sin. It was “practicing” sin. Even daily. That is not “falling” because he had no godly sorrow. He was just sad he got caught. Did they really care about the guy’s eternal life? No. If they had they would have followed scripture and realized that A. He was practicing sin and B) he should be kicked out so he could be saved. As Paul termed it: Turn him over to Satan.
The elders did not “love” this man. They did not “love” his wife. They did not care about his eternal life.
(we can still love them even though they are kicked out of the Body)
So, my question to you is, was he ever really saved at all? A good tree does not bear bad fruit. He looked real good on stage. Said all the right things but had rotten fruit that only his wife knew about for years. And she wanted the mortgage paid, too! Until she could not take it anymore.
Why are you assuming these types just “fall” for a while? Can the Holy Spirit dwell in your heart and look at the porn at the same time?
Sanctification can look like brokenness. We have real godly sorrow for such sin. Why couldn’t the “learned men” who are supposed to know scripture say to him, “Based on what we know, we do not think you are saved at all. You must leave us and we pray you are saved. It worked for the 1 Corin 5 guy. In fact, Paul had to tell the church to give him a break later on in 2 Corin.
What bothers me the most about all this aberrent teaching is that it seems no one believes in the power of the Holy Spirit to deliver us from such things. He CAN and DOES. But it is not taught much anymore.
So, we go on telling perverts and consistent willful sinners that they are saved, We lie to them. And one reason we do this is because we say all sin is the same. SGM tells young victims of molesters (who profess Christ) they are sinners, too, just like the molester. This is a horror.
“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
We are not supposed to act like wickedness is normal for a believer.
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Randy,
Here’s a Piper quote related to this thread of comments. Note his answer as he addresses a question regarding total depravity of the “elect”: “Does being totally depraved mean we’re always sinning? Yes.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lO7u4VRc1pU
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“am not at all suggesting that Paul was carrying on his former lifestyle, simply that he was still a sinner. Maybe you don’t commit sins, but I know I still do. I think 1 Jn 9 would be meaningless if we didn’t.”
Randy, Logic is allowed in Christianity. I know many think it is isn’t. Ok, let’s parse this “sin thing”. I yelled at my daughter the other day. It was sin. I felt horrible and apologized to her and told her I was convicted at how selfish it was. So, I am a sinner. Yes! I even have bad thoughts! I work to take them captive and make them obedient and will have to do so until I am taken to Glory.
Now, The molester attends church, is considered a member in good standing and rapes his 10 year old daughter several times per month. He is a sinner, too. But is he saved? Is he willfully and consistently sining with the knowledge of truth? Yes. He knows it is a sin. Hebrews says about him: There was no sacrifice.
Let us understand for once and for all that practicing sin is not something we should blow off so casually to say, “we are all sinners”. No, believers are not consistently viewing porn or molesting their daughters. . It is serious business as in eternal life.
Yes, 1 John is right. I am a sinner and if I do not admit it, I am a liar. But I have to ask, do you think verse 9 means we continue doing the same sins over and over and simply confess them each time to get them struck off some cosmic list? Driscoll does this.
Please go read the rest of John…it is speaking to believers…here are some snippets:
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. ******6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him******. (Does this contradict the 1st Chapter where we are all sinners?)
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.******* 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.*******
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Lydia,
As long as a person is practicing sin, he is to be considered an unbeliever unless and until he repents. Do I know whether he is a believer or not? NO. Still, I must assume he is not until he gives evidence to the contrary.
It seemed to me the what was being discussed on the video was in reference to people who were battling this sin, not people who were enjoying it with relish. I think that is an important distinction.
Randy
LikeLike