The Apostle Paul wrote, “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal. 6:14).
Yes, I am a wicked sinner redeemed by Christ. But should I stay that way? If I stay that way, then what is the point of it all? What is up with all this glorifying of sin? I do not get it! What on earth does being Born Again really mean? A new creature? A new life in Christ.? What is the point of the Holy Spirit?
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Also, Phil
Personally, I think it results from a lack of understanding the indwelling Holy Spirit.
if anyone wants to see where this thinking leads in an extreme way, then take a look at SGM and what is happening there. It is Exhibit A for this sin-sniffing-stuck-at-the-Cross in depravity, doctrine of glorifying sin for the redeemed.
Visit the SGM survivor blogs and read story after story of children being molested and the pastors trained by Mahaney
saying something to the effect of, ” well, you are a sinner too, even though the professing believer who molested you claims to know Christ…you both are sinners so forgive. We are all depraved…blah blah blah. And story after story of people being excommunicated for questioning the pastors.
I ask this question: Is it possible for one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit to molest a 10 year old? Evidently, SGM thinks so. It is expected because they remain “depraved sinners” after claiming to be saved. I disagree. It is evidence that one should work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
Thanks Paul. I will give it some thought but I have a ton of experience dealing with paid ministry types and very little of it is good. When your income is dependent on your reputation and what you have taught, supported, blurbed books, speaking gigs, etc. things can get very ugly when they are challenged. If there is one thing I learned in all those years working with mega’s: The persona on stage is not usually the persona off stage.
Another way to look at this thinking of NC- stuck- in- total -depravity- glorifying- sin is as another variation of the “Bill Clinton” defense. After all, we are only “human”. And humans fail all the time. Cinton was actually glorified by many over his failing because it made him “real”. Are we seeing a variation of this?
Amen, to your point about the Holy Spirit. I thought the one born of the Spirit was not supposed to go on sinning because we’re born of God. Does a murderer have Eternal Life in him? No! There’s no question that we sin from time to time and feel wicked, but we confess. God is faithful and just to forgive. These so called Wicked, Bad Christians never seem to have a clear consceince towards God. They sound at war with God. If they are not walking in paths of righteousness, how shall they enter God’s rest? God’s discipline is supposed to produce a harvest of righteousness and peace/rest for those who have been trained by it (Heb 12:11). How can Christians be imitators of Christ, mirrors of Gods justice, if we are “wicked” all the time? Acts 5:42 says “they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the GOOD NEWS that Jesus is the Christ.” The New Calvinists don’t seem to understand that Christ means KING, and He’s the one to be obeyed! That’s the Gospel. Also, He is Righteous and not CONDEMNING everything His people do.
Heb 6:10 “GOD IS NOT UNJUST; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.”
What you are saying is exactly what New Covenant Theology teaches. Unlike the classic position on Romans 7, at least some of us believe the Apostle is describing his experience under the Law and the Law’s inability to sanctify him. This he contrasts with life in the Spirit (Rom. 8) and “What the Law could not do, Jesus accomplished for us enabling us to begin to do what the Law demanded, i. e., love God.
It is nevertheless true that Paul was a relatively old man, not far from death when he wrote, “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I AM, (not I WAS) chief” (1 Tim. 1:15). I don’t think Paul was a “New Calvinist.”
I don’t think anyone glories in being a sinner apart from the fact that it was for great sinners Jesus died. No we are no longer totally depraved. We are not without the Holy Spirit, and since the Holy Spirit carries on a warfare against the flesh, we cannot do the things that we would do left to ourselves.
Bill, I agree with what you have said, but I don’t really hear these guys saying anything contrary to that. True, I have known many Reformed Baptist [Old Calvinists] who were always checking their pulses and doubting whether they were truly among the elect, but this is nothing new. New Covenant Theology doesn’t teach that. I know what Paul [not the Apostle] wants you to believe, but it just isn’t true.
I don’t think anyone in the so called NC movement is saying we still sin, but we are content to stay where we are. Can you find any of them making such a statement?
I am not a New Calvinist. I ,am too old for that. Still, I would rather be a New Calvinist than an old Arminian. Paul seems to have some sort of twisted need to lump everyone together so that if I believe anything New Calvinists believe I must believe everything they and everyone who has even been loosely associated with them believes. This simply isn’t the case. If you would like to see what I really believe as a NC teacher, I would urge you to visit http://www.new-covenant-theology.org. I can guarantee you will find that Paul hasn’t been representing my position accurately.
You told me you were a proponent of Gospel Sanctification and that you were proud of it. GS emerged after Sonship went underground and is the theology of New Calvinism. And regardless of what you say, OC doesn’t believe in sanctification by faith alone or sanctification by justification. Also, even though you have a NCT website, you deny that Jon Zens is your daddy. Children should show their parents honor.
In case you didn’t get my drift, I am not disagreeing with either one of you. My point is that I don’t think Piper and others would either, unless it be on the Romans 7 thing. But that is an Old Calvinist position.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
The Apostle Paul wrote, “May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal. 6:14).
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Yes, I am a wicked sinner redeemed by Christ. But should I stay that way? If I stay that way, then what is the point of it all? What is up with all this glorifying of sin? I do not get it! What on earth does being Born Again really mean? A new creature? A new life in Christ.? What is the point of the Holy Spirit?
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Also, Phil
Personally, I think it results from a lack of understanding the indwelling Holy Spirit.
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Lydia,
It all goes back to their daddy, Robert Brinsmead, and his “centrality of the objective gospel.” I have some new posts coming out on this.
> —–Original Message—– >
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oops, meant Phil 3….
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if anyone wants to see where this thinking leads in an extreme way, then take a look at SGM and what is happening there. It is Exhibit A for this sin-sniffing-stuck-at-the-Cross in depravity, doctrine of glorifying sin for the redeemed.
Visit the SGM survivor blogs and read story after story of children being molested and the pastors trained by Mahaney
saying something to the effect of, ” well, you are a sinner too, even though the professing believer who molested you claims to know Christ…you both are sinners so forgive. We are all depraved…blah blah blah. And story after story of people being excommunicated for questioning the pastors.
I ask this question: Is it possible for one who has the indwelling Holy Spirit to molest a 10 year old? Evidently, SGM thinks so. It is expected because they remain “depraved sinners” after claiming to be saved. I disagree. It is evidence that one should work out their salvation with fear and trembling.
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Sounds like a needed post Lydia. Submit your manuscript to pmd@inbox.com
> —–Original Message—– >
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Thanks Paul. I will give it some thought but I have a ton of experience dealing with paid ministry types and very little of it is good. When your income is dependent on your reputation and what you have taught, supported, blurbed books, speaking gigs, etc. things can get very ugly when they are challenged. If there is one thing I learned in all those years working with mega’s: The persona on stage is not usually the persona off stage.
Another way to look at this thinking of NC- stuck- in- total -depravity- glorifying- sin is as another variation of the “Bill Clinton” defense. After all, we are only “human”. And humans fail all the time. Cinton was actually glorified by many over his failing because it made him “real”. Are we seeing a variation of this?
BTW: What do they do with Hebrews 10: 26-31?
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Lydia, Hebrews 10: 26-31? Well, as Paul David Tripp says: “That must be seen in its gospel context.”
> —–Original Message—– >
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Lydia,
Amen, to your point about the Holy Spirit. I thought the one born of the Spirit was not supposed to go on sinning because we’re born of God. Does a murderer have Eternal Life in him? No! There’s no question that we sin from time to time and feel wicked, but we confess. God is faithful and just to forgive. These so called Wicked, Bad Christians never seem to have a clear consceince towards God. They sound at war with God. If they are not walking in paths of righteousness, how shall they enter God’s rest? God’s discipline is supposed to produce a harvest of righteousness and peace/rest for those who have been trained by it (Heb 12:11). How can Christians be imitators of Christ, mirrors of Gods justice, if we are “wicked” all the time? Acts 5:42 says “they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the GOOD NEWS that Jesus is the Christ.” The New Calvinists don’t seem to understand that Christ means KING, and He’s the one to be obeyed! That’s the Gospel. Also, He is Righteous and not CONDEMNING everything His people do.
Heb 6:10 “GOD IS NOT UNJUST; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.”
Arkansas Bill
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Now Bill, remember, WE ARE BARABBAS: http://wp.me/pmd7S-SB
> —–Original Message—– >
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Bill and Lydia,
What you are saying is exactly what New Covenant Theology teaches. Unlike the classic position on Romans 7, at least some of us believe the Apostle is describing his experience under the Law and the Law’s inability to sanctify him. This he contrasts with life in the Spirit (Rom. 8) and “What the Law could not do, Jesus accomplished for us enabling us to begin to do what the Law demanded, i. e., love God.
It is nevertheless true that Paul was a relatively old man, not far from death when he wrote, “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I AM, (not I WAS) chief” (1 Tim. 1:15). I don’t think Paul was a “New Calvinist.”
I don’t think anyone glories in being a sinner apart from the fact that it was for great sinners Jesus died. No we are no longer totally depraved. We are not without the Holy Spirit, and since the Holy Spirit carries on a warfare against the flesh, we cannot do the things that we would do left to ourselves.
Bill, I agree with what you have said, but I don’t really hear these guys saying anything contrary to that. True, I have known many Reformed Baptist [Old Calvinists] who were always checking their pulses and doubting whether they were truly among the elect, but this is nothing new. New Covenant Theology doesn’t teach that. I know what Paul [not the Apostle] wants you to believe, but it just isn’t true.
I don’t think anyone in the so called NC movement is saying we still sin, but we are content to stay where we are. Can you find any of them making such a statement?
I am not a New Calvinist. I ,am too old for that. Still, I would rather be a New Calvinist than an old Arminian. Paul seems to have some sort of twisted need to lump everyone together so that if I believe anything New Calvinists believe I must believe everything they and everyone who has even been loosely associated with them believes. This simply isn’t the case. If you would like to see what I really believe as a NC teacher, I would urge you to visit http://www.new-covenant-theology.org. I can guarantee you will find that Paul hasn’t been representing my position accurately.
Randy
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Randy,
You told me you were a proponent of Gospel Sanctification and that you were proud of it. GS emerged after Sonship went underground and is the theology of New Calvinism. And regardless of what you say, OC doesn’t believe in sanctification by faith alone or sanctification by justification. Also, even though you have a NCT website, you deny that Jon Zens is your daddy. Children should show their parents honor.
> —–Original Message—– >
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That smiley face is actually supposed to be an 8. Rom 8
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BTW, you must not say, “I am a wicked sinner, redeemed by Christ.” Paul will think you are a New Calvinist. He thinks he isn’t a sinner any more.
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Randy,
A “sinner” is someone who sins as a lifestyle. Christians are people who at times sin. Big difference.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Bill and Lydia,
In case you didn’t get my drift, I am not disagreeing with either one of you. My point is that I don’t think Piper and others would either, unless it be on the Romans 7 thing. But that is an Old Calvinist position.
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