Hi Paul,
I commented a while ago, then took a break from blogs, during which time I lazily began to believe that NC and the mystical contemplative prayer movement (closely related, I now see) are not that bad, and will resolve themselves. Both of the aformentioned are affecting my extended family in two separate churches. In one case, the Spiritual Formation pastor attends Renovare conferences and calls Dallas Willard a close personal friend. The church, formerly solid Reformed Baptist, uses Ortberg’s “The Me I Want to Be” and quotes the Desert Fathers. In the other case, the pastor is, well, OTT. Returning to PPT and your insightful, factual research, disabuses me of the notion that this is a harmless diversion. This is my overdue, long way of thanking you for your efforts.
When I hear these pastors quote Elyse’s new parenting book and see the pervasive influence of mysticism in youth ministries, I know that more people have to tell the story of this transformation of formerly Biblical churches.
I cracked up at your reference to “Extremism Light” (fundamental KJ only churches) and your willingness to sacrifice your Sunday jeans. That’s where I am. Last week we sang a little song right out of Psalm 19….”The law of the Lord is perfect….more precious than gold.” So much for “a bunch of rules.” We’re also having some serious problems in our extended family, and I must say that the crystal clarity in this fundamental church’s preaching is a comfort to me. At best, NC can thoroughly confuse.
I confess that I LOL at your ironic metaphors and names for people. A little guilty indulgence. Thanks again and blessings, Jan
paulspassingthoughts said, on August 2, 2011 at 12:28 PM
Matt/Jan
Thanks for this testimony. New Calvinism has wreaked havoc among Christian families and has split many churches. The movement looks good to the likes of John MacArthur as he looks at the world through his theology library at Master’s Seminary and Grace Community Church. The suffering this movement has caused among the laity who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling is a mostly untold story. A world that MacArthur and others are out of touch with. What they see is how much fun it is to have lunch with CJ Mahaney at Applebees. Their world is all about tweeting in regard to how cool it is to hang out with the spiritual elite of our age as the peasants wait with bated breath for the next profound unction.
interesting comparison, it’s like running down some contagious disease. The Like-Minded Chart ties it all together.
Antinomians types apparently are like-minded. Spouting similar old-fashioned arguments. I’ve got a few more quotes from Dr. Charles F. Stanley of In Touch Ministries, First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia:
“As long as I have an ongoing role in the salvation process, my natural tendency will be to focus on my behavior rather than on Christ.”
“People who are constantly examining their spiritual condition tend to fall into the trap of legalism.”
“But isn’t it true that people who believe they must maintain some kind of good works in order to stay saved are trusting in themselves for their eternal security?”
“Placing the responsibility for maintaining salvation on the believer is adding works to grace. Salvation would no longer be a gift. It would be a trade – our faithfulness for His faithfulness.”
“Show me a believer who is caught up in trying to maintain God’s acceptance through good works, and I will show you a fragile saint. My experience has been that these are the people who on the surface appear to be completely sold out to personal holiness and purity but who suddenly disappear. It is not unusual for these well-meaning types to end up in a lifestyle completely opposite of what they once stood for.”
Any of this theological confusion sound familiar? I gotta admit, all of these are fine sounding arguments. Unfortunately, they pervert the truth and are, I agree, “disgusting.”
The charts will be ongoing and I can use a few of these along with a couple of Paul Tripp jewels. Of course, we would agree that Christians can’t work to maintain justification, But I find the first two not only scary, but a direct contradiction to Scripture. In the last quote, and in true GS fashion, he changes the wording of our goal from “pleasing God” to “being accepted,” subtly making our efforts in sanctification a justification issue.
Stanley is coming from a very bold, not subtle, position of antinomianism. To him Faith Alone without any acts of obedience accompanying it, even denying Christ later, and you will be eternally saved. He does not believe Calvinisms’ point #5 (Perseverence of the Saints). He says:
“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”
“In Christ, the requirements of God’s holiness have been completely fullfilled!”
Responding to your comment: True, our works do not create nor maintain our Salvation. God gives the gift of Salvation/Eternal Life and maintains it. We were spiritually dead but made alive by God. We believe because we have crossed over from death unto life. Union with Christ and the Spirit means our spirits are alive. The Eternal Spirit is giving us life, our flesh counts for nothing. We are a “New Creation.” Faith, Hope, and Love for God are poured into our hearts by the Spirit. God working in us, we are moved and compelled. So, we are recognized by our fruits or good works. Our works give expression to what we actually believe. We show ourselves to be His disciples. Works prove we are faithful. We obey God and it shows we love God.
Now, what I have said immediately above is, in my opinion, the Old Calvinist view. Guys like Jonathan Edwards taught that the Holy Spirit is Salvation itself! No thought of works creating, earning, or maintianing Salvation was on the radar screen. However, I think Stanley (the Antinomian), wants his readers to think his opposition believes in maintaining Salvation (“staying saved”) by good works. What he says about “Placing the responsibility for maintianing salvation is adding works to grace” is true! But he’s using that statement to imply that his opposition is doing it when we’re not. Yes, he’s throwing people into confusion in G/S fashion. Michael Horton also uses this technique when he accuses doctrinal: “Self Salvation, Self Justification, Christless Christianity, Works Salvation,” etc.. He’s implying to his readers that the historic church, with the “to do lists,” working hard, resisting sin, cautious about behavior, and making efforts believes in those false doctrines. Stanley and Horton make it sound like the church has been standing with the Pharisees. So what everybody needs is something new – New Calvinism, Modern Reformation, and a New Gospel devoid of the obedience that comes from faith.
I concur. If you get some time, give me some references on the Stanley quotes if they aren’t on your other comment.Also, somewhat in regard to this, you might find my next post interesting–going up in about an hour. Thanks Bill, paul
looking forward to the next post. See quotes below with references.
Quotes from Dr. Charles F. Stanley of In Touch Ministries, First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia
From his book – ETERNAL SECURITY Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, Tenn.
Copyright 1990 by Charles Stanley
PAGE 6 “As long as I have an ongoing role in the salvation process, my natural tendency will be to focus on my behavior rather than on Christ.”
PAGE 7 “People who are constantly examining their spiritual condition tend to fall into the trap of legalism.”
PAGE 200 “But isn’t it true that people who believe they must maintain some kind of good works in order to stay saved are trusting in themselves for their eternal security?”
PAGE 195 “Placing the responsibility for maintaining salvation on the believer is adding works to grace. Salvation would no longer be a gift. It would be a trade – our faithfulness for His faithfulness.”
PAGE 7 “Show me a believer who is caught up in trying to maintain God’s acceptance through good works, and I will show you a fragile saint. My experience has been that these are the people who on the surface appear to be completely sold out to personal holiness and purity but who suddenly disappear. It is not unusual for these well-meaning types to end up in a lifestyle completely opposite of what they once stood for.”
PAGE 93 “Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”
PAGE 72 “The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”
PAGE 93 “Christ will not deny an unbelieving Christian his or her salvation because to do so would be to deny Himself. Why? Faithful or not, every person who has at any time had saving faith is a permanent part of the body of Christ.”
PAGE 104 “In Christ, the requirements of God’s holiness have been completely fullfilled!”
PAGE 63 “According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual “believe in” Him.”
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Hi Paul,
I commented a while ago, then took a break from blogs, during which time I lazily began to believe that NC and the mystical contemplative prayer movement (closely related, I now see) are not that bad, and will resolve themselves. Both of the aformentioned are affecting my extended family in two separate churches. In one case, the Spiritual Formation pastor attends Renovare conferences and calls Dallas Willard a close personal friend. The church, formerly solid Reformed Baptist, uses Ortberg’s “The Me I Want to Be” and quotes the Desert Fathers. In the other case, the pastor is, well, OTT. Returning to PPT and your insightful, factual research, disabuses me of the notion that this is a harmless diversion. This is my overdue, long way of thanking you for your efforts.
When I hear these pastors quote Elyse’s new parenting book and see the pervasive influence of mysticism in youth ministries, I know that more people have to tell the story of this transformation of formerly Biblical churches.
I cracked up at your reference to “Extremism Light” (fundamental KJ only churches) and your willingness to sacrifice your Sunday jeans. That’s where I am. Last week we sang a little song right out of Psalm 19….”The law of the Lord is perfect….more precious than gold.” So much for “a bunch of rules.” We’re also having some serious problems in our extended family, and I must say that the crystal clarity in this fundamental church’s preaching is a comfort to me. At best, NC can thoroughly confuse.
I confess that I LOL at your ironic metaphors and names for people. A little guilty indulgence. Thanks again and blessings, Jan
LikeLike
Matt/Jan
Thanks for this testimony. New Calvinism has wreaked havoc among Christian families and has split many churches. The movement looks good to the likes of John MacArthur as he looks at the world through his theology library at Master’s Seminary and Grace Community Church. The suffering this movement has caused among the laity who are working out their salvation with fear and trembling is a mostly untold story. A world that MacArthur and others are out of touch with. What they see is how much fun it is to have lunch with CJ Mahaney at Applebees. Their world is all about tweeting in regard to how cool it is to hang out with the spiritual elite of our age as the peasants wait with bated breath for the next profound unction.
It’s disgusting.
paul
LikeLike
Paul,
interesting comparison, it’s like running down some contagious disease. The Like-Minded Chart ties it all together.
Antinomians types apparently are like-minded. Spouting similar old-fashioned arguments. I’ve got a few more quotes from Dr. Charles F. Stanley of In Touch Ministries, First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia:
“As long as I have an ongoing role in the salvation process, my natural tendency will be to focus on my behavior rather than on Christ.”
“People who are constantly examining their spiritual condition tend to fall into the trap of legalism.”
“But isn’t it true that people who believe they must maintain some kind of good works in order to stay saved are trusting in themselves for their eternal security?”
“Placing the responsibility for maintaining salvation on the believer is adding works to grace. Salvation would no longer be a gift. It would be a trade – our faithfulness for His faithfulness.”
“Show me a believer who is caught up in trying to maintain God’s acceptance through good works, and I will show you a fragile saint. My experience has been that these are the people who on the surface appear to be completely sold out to personal holiness and purity but who suddenly disappear. It is not unusual for these well-meaning types to end up in a lifestyle completely opposite of what they once stood for.”
Any of this theological confusion sound familiar? I gotta admit, all of these are fine sounding arguments. Unfortunately, they pervert the truth and are, I agree, “disgusting.”
Arkansas Bill
LikeLike
Bill,
The charts will be ongoing and I can use a few of these along with a couple of Paul Tripp jewels. Of course, we would agree that Christians can’t work to maintain justification, But I find the first two not only scary, but a direct contradiction to Scripture. In the last quote, and in true GS fashion, he changes the wording of our goal from “pleasing God” to “being accepted,” subtly making our efforts in sanctification a justification issue.
paul
> —–Original Message—– >
LikeLike
Paul,
Stanley is coming from a very bold, not subtle, position of antinomianism. To him Faith Alone without any acts of obedience accompanying it, even denying Christ later, and you will be eternally saved. He does not believe Calvinisms’ point #5 (Perseverence of the Saints). He says:
“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”
“In Christ, the requirements of God’s holiness have been completely fullfilled!”
Responding to your comment: True, our works do not create nor maintain our Salvation. God gives the gift of Salvation/Eternal Life and maintains it. We were spiritually dead but made alive by God. We believe because we have crossed over from death unto life. Union with Christ and the Spirit means our spirits are alive. The Eternal Spirit is giving us life, our flesh counts for nothing. We are a “New Creation.” Faith, Hope, and Love for God are poured into our hearts by the Spirit. God working in us, we are moved and compelled. So, we are recognized by our fruits or good works. Our works give expression to what we actually believe. We show ourselves to be His disciples. Works prove we are faithful. We obey God and it shows we love God.
Now, what I have said immediately above is, in my opinion, the Old Calvinist view. Guys like Jonathan Edwards taught that the Holy Spirit is Salvation itself! No thought of works creating, earning, or maintianing Salvation was on the radar screen. However, I think Stanley (the Antinomian), wants his readers to think his opposition believes in maintaining Salvation (“staying saved”) by good works. What he says about “Placing the responsibility for maintianing salvation is adding works to grace” is true! But he’s using that statement to imply that his opposition is doing it when we’re not. Yes, he’s throwing people into confusion in G/S fashion. Michael Horton also uses this technique when he accuses doctrinal: “Self Salvation, Self Justification, Christless Christianity, Works Salvation,” etc.. He’s implying to his readers that the historic church, with the “to do lists,” working hard, resisting sin, cautious about behavior, and making efforts believes in those false doctrines. Stanley and Horton make it sound like the church has been standing with the Pharisees. So what everybody needs is something new – New Calvinism, Modern Reformation, and a New Gospel devoid of the obedience that comes from faith.
Arkansas Bill
LikeLike
I concur. If you get some time, give me some references on the Stanley quotes if they aren’t on your other comment.Also, somewhat in regard to this, you might find my next post interesting–going up in about an hour. Thanks Bill, paul
> —–Original Message—– >
LikeLike
Paul,
looking forward to the next post. See quotes below with references.
Quotes from Dr. Charles F. Stanley of In Touch Ministries, First Baptist Church of Atlanta, Georgia
From his book – ETERNAL SECURITY Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, Tenn.
Copyright 1990 by Charles Stanley
PAGE 6 “As long as I have an ongoing role in the salvation process, my natural tendency will be to focus on my behavior rather than on Christ.”
PAGE 7 “People who are constantly examining their spiritual condition tend to fall into the trap of legalism.”
PAGE 200 “But isn’t it true that people who believe they must maintain some kind of good works in order to stay saved are trusting in themselves for their eternal security?”
PAGE 195 “Placing the responsibility for maintaining salvation on the believer is adding works to grace. Salvation would no longer be a gift. It would be a trade – our faithfulness for His faithfulness.”
PAGE 7 “Show me a believer who is caught up in trying to maintain God’s acceptance through good works, and I will show you a fragile saint. My experience has been that these are the people who on the surface appear to be completely sold out to personal holiness and purity but who suddenly disappear. It is not unusual for these well-meaning types to end up in a lifestyle completely opposite of what they once stood for.”
PAGE 93 “Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”
PAGE 72 “The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”
PAGE 93 “Christ will not deny an unbelieving Christian his or her salvation because to do so would be to deny Himself. Why? Faithful or not, every person who has at any time had saving faith is a permanent part of the body of Christ.”
PAGE 104 “In Christ, the requirements of God’s holiness have been completely fullfilled!”
PAGE 63 “According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual “believe in” Him.”
Arkansas Bill
LikeLike
Thanks a bunch for these Bill. paul
> —–Original Message—– >
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