Open Discussion: The Horton Statement That Nobody Wants To Talk About
Christless Christianity, page 62:
“Where we land on these issues is perhaps the most significant factor in how we approach our own faith and practice and communicate it to the world. If not only the unregenerate but the regenerate are always dependent at every moment on the free grace of God disclosed in the gospel, then nothing can raise those who are spiritually dead or continually give life to Christ’s flock but the Spirit working through the gospel. When this happens (not just once, but every time we encounter the gospel afresh), the Spirit progressively transforms us into Christ’s image. Start with Christ (that is, the gospel) and you get sanctification in the bargain; begin with Christ and move on to something else, and you lose both.”
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Why don’t you respond intelligently to my post about 2 Cor 3 instead of continuing to make stupid and irrational statements. We might accidentally wind up having a meaningful discussion. If it doesn’ t mean what I said it means, what does it mean?
Randy
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For some reason, my other comments weren’t being posted. That is why I changed to another email. I am certain you wouldn’t have cut off someone who wants to discuss a statement “no one wants to discuss” would you. That would just be altogether too petty.
Randy
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Wouldn’t dream of it sweety.
> —–Original Message—– >
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In case you missed, [I don’t know since you didn’t comment on it], here it is again.
Regarding the initial quote from Horton, it appears to me he is simply accurately mirroring the Apostle Paul’s words in 2 Cor. 3:18, “but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from one stage of glory to another, even as by the Lord, the Spirit.” This glory of God is seen in the face of Jesus Christ, as God has revealed him to us in the gospel. It is as we gaze on THAT glory, not the fading glory of the ministry of death, the covenant written on tables of stone (2 Cor. 3:7-13) that the Spirit conforms us to the image of Christ
The Apostle wrote to those Galatians who were becoming enamored by the Mosaic law, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only would I learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish, having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh” ( Gal 3:1-3).
This does not mean we are quiescent in the process of sanctification. Because God works in us to will and do what pleases him, we work out our salvation [sanctification] with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12-13).
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Perhaps he means something like, “Fix your minds on Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession” (Heb 3:1), or “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. . . .” (Heb 12:2), or “He who goes on eating of my flesh and drinking of my blood (the present tense points to continuing appropriation), has eternal life. . . (John 6:54). Although active in obeying Christ, the true believer must depend on Christ and his Spirit at every moment for the ability to do so. If you need more references, the New Testament Scriptures are full of them.
Randy
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Again, these verses do not limit our role to contemplation and repentance only, as NC clearly does.
> —–Original Message—– >
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I believe every time a true believer hears the gospel, he says in his heart, “that is the Savior I need.” I rejoice in God’s good news every time I hear it.
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you mean “good gospel”? Obviously, if you revisit it everyday, it’s no longer “news.”
> —–Original Message—– >
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You need to understand I am not an apologist for Horton. He would have to tell you what he means by “afresh,” but I would surmise that it means something like “again.”
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Uh, yep, me too.
> —–Original Message—– >
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OK still waiting here.
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Paul,
One think I have noticed about you is you never actually try to exegete an actual passage of Scripture. May you should give that a shot. It might be a good exercise for you.
Randy
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Dear Randy:
First, I don’t KNOW if you are regenerate or not, only God knows this with certainty.
Never the less, Romans says (and I have already referenced it as the basis of my concern with respect to you and any and all who teach “lawlessness”):
“The carnal mind IS not” (Present Tense, NT believers are the recipients) ” subject to the Law of God, neither, indeed, can be”.
Since the context of the verse is Romans eight, where the distinction being made is between true and false believers, my conclusion is that Paul is saying that the person who is habitually carnal, or fleshly in their life, and teaching, is so, because they are “not subject to the Law of God.” We know Paul is refering to the Ceremonial Law here because his complaint against the Galations was not their adherence to the Moral Law, but rather their adherence to Circumcision, which was a part of the Ceremonial Law, and actually given before Moses restatement and formalization of the Ceremonial Law at Sinai.
Therefore, when a person, after repeated and prolonged atempts to show them their error with respect to God’s Law and it’s proper place as a “schoolmaster to bring to Christ”, in the first place, and as a “rule of life”, to help one understand God’s commandments, after they have believed on Him, as taught by Christ in the Sermon on the mount, I begin to suspect or wonder about ones true status as an unbeliever or believer.
As I have already stated on this blog, I was subjected to many years of the type of teaching you espouse with respect to the Moral Law, and I believed it. But I was subsequently converted powerfully by God’s Spirit, and was received “the earnest of my inheritance”, when sealed by the Spirit, and God wrote His Law in my heart, and all of a sudden, I loved God’s Law, and began to understand it for the first time. But it took some time before I learned what was going on doctrinally. Even so, as soon as I was taught correctly with respect to the Law, I did not reject it as you have done, and do. Thus, do I wonder, yes, I do.
Secondly, in your response to my comments wherein I questioned your understanding of being under the law as a new testament believer, the comment you made today, you say that the context of Gal 4 had no bearing in what I had said was errouneous about your beliefs. This is totally false, it has everything to do with your false teaching about NT believers not being under the Law, born under the Law, just like everyone else is, until they come under grace by believeing in Christ alone for salvation. When they see the Law spiritually for what it is, they then know that no one except Christ ever could or has fulfilled the Law for them, and they “flee to Christ” for salvation…to Christ, ALONE, for salvation. Paul has explained this perfectly on this blog, the Puritans, whom you claim to have read explained this also, Richard Barcellos has explained it, Earnie Reisinger has explained it, Peter Masters has explained it, and no doubt, have many others, whom you no doubt have read, or should have read. Believers are under the Law as a rule of life, not as a means of salvation, and you know this perfectly well, but you reject it, and call those who teach it “legalists” just as Paul D has patiently and clearly explained on this blog, and so I believe the key to why you do so is given in the following words: “are not subject to the Law of God, NEITHER, INDEED, CAN BE”. Clear as can be to me.
Now, prior to my writing this latest comment, I had not gone and checked out your web site, because I had seen the comments you had made and didn’t want to spend a lot of time reading what I assumed to be false doctrine, which I had read before from other men claiming NCT “truths”. but just to be sure I did go there and read some things you espouse.
On our web site you say Cov Theology types falsely accuse you of many things, one of which is that you teach NT believers are not under the law. But in your response to my question about Galatians 4 this is exactly what you say.
I could, point to many other inconsistencies in your arguements, but the bottom line is this.
You say that you have no interest in winning an argument with Paul, and thus you are not tempted to the pride that such “winning” would involve, but I think you simply don’t see your true motives.
For example, on your site I find that you proudly claim to be the first to have ever used the term NCT, and when you found out through Pauls blog who you doubt “much of anyone takes seriously”, that “Brother Zens” was in fact the first to use the term, you take pains to tell your readers that your use of it was apart from any knowledge of his doing so first, and thus you still claim credit for this great new term, and for being one of those enlightened ones who saw the errors of the foolish Puritans and Reformers and other “covenant types” that were so foolish in their teachings. Poor stupid Bunyan, whom God honored with Puritans Progress, Holy War, and many precious and wonderful works which would lead you out of your error would you only humble yourself and seek God’s enlightenment. Where, I ask, is your “Pilgrims Progress”?
Pride, in Pipers coining the term “Christian Hedonism”, when his theological heros, such as Mueller, and Edwards, would never have done such a thing, and avoided any hint of human pride or flattery in their works and writings, for they knew well the dangers of this sin. That is what I mean by seeking the honor of men rather than the honor of God only. Piper even refers to this pride in his departing for his sabbatical, when he says that he detects “several species of pride” in himself, but then he tells us that he has a “passion for public ministry”, and this is the reason he is so involved in so many things other than family life. Is this “passion” he speaks of a desire to be the center of attention, or to make Christ and his work the subject of attention? After looking at a picture of his wife, who is also very over weight, I can’t help but wonder if this has something to do with why he doen’t spend more time with her, and why he thinks nothing of inviting the grossly overweight Rick Warren to speak at his conference. You say it’s none of your business as a pastor what others in the Body of Christ weigh, but the the Word says we are to be “subject to one another” and we are to speak the truth in Love to one another. Paul, in reference to the very matter of gluttony said this: “But I buffet my body to make it my slave, lest I, having preached, should myself become disqualified.” Has Rick Warren “buffeted his body to make it his slave”? Is he thus, apart from all the other errors he is involved in, “disqualified”? I think so, and if one didn’t know anything at all about scripture or doctrine, but had any sensitivity to the Spirit’s leading, they would take one look at him and refuse to hear what he says about God’s Word.
Any of these things, taken separately, and isolated from the other behaviors, statements, words, of these men whom champion this “new doctrine” would not be cause for alarm about the heretical nature of their teaching, perhaps, but taken together, I’m afraid they are cause for great alarm.
For me, before I studied these things carefully and prayed over them, and sought God’s understanding with respect to what it was about them that didn’t line up with God’s Word, there was something about them that turned me off when I read their teachings, something in my spirit that said “no”, something in my conscience said “beware”, take a stepped back. I believe this is what Christ was refering to when He said, “My sheep hear my voice and follow me, other shepherds they will not follow.”
I am thankful that I hear His voice and that I do not follow these other shepherds, and that there are true undershepherds whom he has provided for me to follow, but I also find, as soon as I listen to the voice of my flesh, and of the world, and of the devil, and entertain them, that I begin to fail to hear His Voice so clearly. Lord “keep” me as you have so graciously saved me.
Once again,
Offered in Love,
In Him
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Ok: “Regarding the initial quote from Horton, it appears to me he is simply accurately mirroring the Apostle Paul’s words in 2 Cor. 3:18, “but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from one stage of glory to another, even as by the Lord, the Spirit.”
PAUL’S STATEMENT ABOVE DOES NOT LIMIT SANCTIFICATION TO CONTEMPLATION ON THE GOSPEL–HORTON’S STATEMENT CLEARLY DOES, IE., LIFE AND CHANGE ONLY COME ABOUT WHEN WE VISIT THE GOSPEL “AFRESH” TO RECEIVE THE SAME LIFE THAT UNBELIEVERS ARE DEPENDANT ON. THIS ALSO CLEARLY PUTS BELIEVERS IN THE SAME LEAGUE WITH UNBELIEVERS AND DENIES THE NEW BIRTH AS SONSHIP THEOLOGY ALSO DOES. (CLEARLY. WE HAVE RECEIVED FIRSTHAND TESTIMONY OF THIS FROM A READER THAT IS IN THAT PROGRAM).
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