Open Discussion: The Horton Statement That Nobody Wants To Talk About
Christless Christianity, page 62:
“Where we land on these issues is perhaps the most significant factor in how we approach our own faith and practice and communicate it to the world. If not only the unregenerate but the regenerate are always dependent at every moment on the free grace of God disclosed in the gospel, then nothing can raise those who are spiritually dead or continually give life to Christ’s flock but the Spirit working through the gospel. When this happens (not just once, but every time we encounter the gospel afresh), the Spirit progressively transforms us into Christ’s image. Start with Christ (that is, the gospel) and you get sanctification in the bargain; begin with Christ and move on to something else, and you lose both.”
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Well, I don’t even want to mention how many times I had to read Horton’s quote above to make any sense out of it. I feel sorry for this man, he’s got a problem. He talks about “where we land,” but it sounds like he’s got his feet firmly planted in mid-air. Is this solid Scripture teaching? Not! I think other people probably make this stuff up and he’s gotten hold of it thinking he’s made some theological breakthrough.
I have observed individuals, they see someone praying by a wooden cross and judge – idolatry! Horton also, is too quick to assumptions, always thinking everybody’s trying to self-justify themselves, pulling themselves up by bootstraps, self-helping, involved in self-salvation, works salvation, robbing the Glory of God etc.. Ok, he’s found the exclusive way now that our progressive transformation can only be attributed to the Spirit. And it’s like a green light special. We get sanctification at no extra charge! But beware, this offer is limited. We might lose both if “we move on to something else.” Did he lose his Bible? Has he been shopping at Wal-Mart or what?
Paul, you may have to edit some of this. Feel free.
Arkansas Bill
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Bill,
I checked the RI meter, your good. I have much to say about this quote–I think it captures the essence of New Calvinism. But,for now, I have two teenage boys I have to get out of bed for church (a total of 530 pounds). Hear me knocking?
> —–Original Message—– >
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I want to talk about it. You are the one who cut off discussion. I will discuss anything you want to discuss but you can’t tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe and then we can discuss that. Additionally, I refuse to answer any of your questions unless you are willing to discuss my responses.
Re Horton’s statement above: If you disagree with what he says, I don’t think you understand the gospel or the message of the New Testament Scriptures.
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By the way, you may notice that, in this statement, he refers to “the regenerate.” So much for the idea that we don’t believer in regeneration. I know, your mind is made up, don’t confuse you with the facts.
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Between the lines, it looks like Horton is again making his usual diversion from human responsibility. He reveals that repetition of the Gospel again for the regenerate. I’m wondering though, what does he really mean by the words “regenerate” and “progressively transforms us into Christ’s image?” It wouldn’t surprise me if his definitions are totally different than what most Bible students have ever heard.
Sure, we hear the Gospel. Jesus started His ministry with “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near (Matt 4:17).” Then “Come follow me,” “walk in the light as He is in the light,” “faith expressing itself through love,” “keeping God’s commands is what counts,” “be doers of the word,” and “be holy and blameless.” When will Horton’s Gospel repetition lead to putting into practice the real things that honor, glorify, and show love for God? How do we show ourselves to be Christ’s disciples? How can there be any confidence in cheap, empty talk? Do we not read that love must be made complete (1 Jn 4:12)? And “Love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him (1 Jn 4:17).
Arkansas Bill
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Bill, For now, before I head to church, the answer: Gs’s Contemplative Spirituality on the gospel leads to those things happening without effort, which (effortless works) supposedly gives the works their moral value.
What may make NC unique in all of redemptive history is: it’s the first contemplative, let go and let God, antinomian doctrine that has been organized into a systematic theology that covers theology, interpretation, practice, and experience.
paul
> —–Original Message—– >
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If your two teenaged boys weigh a total of 530 pounds, I guess you haven’t taken very seriously what the Bible says about gluttony. I guess you must be an antinomian. Oh no! You used the term “redemptive history.” You must be a NC thinker. See how nasty it is when people take things you say and assume you believe something you may not believe at all. You know what happens when I assume, right?
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Randy,
They are both 6/4.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Randy,
Sorry, but when someone writes “when you are dead, you cannot do anything,” I just don’t think that needs a lot of qualification when the context is believers. Also, just because there is a redemptive history doesn’t mean that every verse in the Bible is about Christ and the gospel.
> —–Original Message—– >
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Randy,
What’s your breakdown on this quote? What’s he saying? Regeneration? Horton doesn’t plainly deny it, but he says it’s not relevant, and that regeneration is NOT part of the gospel. And since the whole Bible is about the gospel–it’s neither truth or relevant.
“. But to whom are we introducing people, to Christ or to ourselves? Is the “Good News” no longer Christ’s doing and dying, but our own “Spirit-filled” life? More sobering still, this implies that instead of the Word as a means of grace, “victorious Christians” are themselves mediating divine grace through the example of their own holiness. That makes us sacramental, rather than the Word. This is not Good News, but this is what we get whenever we stray from the preached Word as God’s means of grace.”
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My Dear Brother:
According to the BMI Scale, Body Mass Index Scale, the most diffinitve and well documented standard for determining excess body fat, apart from direct measurement of actual body fat by water displacement, the very MOST either son could weigh, and still be in the “normal” range is 197 lb.
Assuming the 530 lb is evenly distributed among them, they are about 66 lb over the maximum “normal” weight, and well into the OBESE catagory on the BMI scale.
Most MD’s who study obesity note that the upper end of the scale for normal, just before it classifies one as being over weight, and prior to classification as OBESE, is usually too fat most people, the lower end of the “Normal” range resulting in far less heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and all the other chronic disease manifestations of over eating, of which there are a veritable plethora.
Should you say to me, that your boys are athletes, and football players, and have ‘bulked up’ in order to be competitive, and are thus the excetion to the rule, I would have to point to the data that has been done on football players who have attempted to carry this weight and avoid the pathology involved. Further, I would have to ask, does organized football, something that many have come to accept as a God-given blessing and right, make violation of His Word OK?
“Mortify your flesh” is what God’s word says about the matter. See also First Corinthians 6:9&ff, and many other passages that group gluttony right along side fornication, murder, effiminance, and so on.
Just because most conservative churches see nothing wrong with a host of gluttonous men women and children sitting down for a pot luck dinner, after hearing a damning sermon on wine bibbing, and thus priding themselves on their restraint and purity before God, doesn’t mean they have been properly taught in this matter.
Offered in love, to one who has been there, and suffered the consequences, including near death, and was spared by God in mercy, and led to the truth in this matter and to good health again by acceptance of His chastisement of me, and to subsequent obedience to Him in ths matter, so as to share these truths with others also deceived, by those that do not teach “the whole counsel of the Word of God”. The Whole Counsel of the Word of God has much to say about obesity, and excess fat, and the desire of physical food rather than spiritual food, which is at the crux of the matter.
“And the people sat down to eat and drink, and got up to play”. For they lusted after the “leeks and garlic, and mellons of Egypt” and after meat to eat, rather than the “manna from heaven”.
In Him,
gerry
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Gerry,
Can’t argue with this–overeating is the accepted sin among Evangelicals. And even though unbelievers usually won’t come right out and say it, it is an obstacle to the gospel.
> —–Original Message—– >
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OK. I weigh 185 lbs. which according to the charts is at the top of the range for my height 6′ and I am muscular. Generally, one can add 5 lbs for each inch of height. That would bring the proper weight for someone 6’4″ to 205. Let’s be generous and give them an extra 40 pounds a piece. That still only brings us to 490lbs for the pair. That means they are 20 lbs overweight on average.
But, of course, being the kind of unidirectional personality you are, you have missed my point. I was intentionally making a statement I had no reason to make, based on information I do not possess, and don’t even care to investigate. This is precisely what you seem to practice in reacting [in my view overreacting] to virtually everything you read. My comment about “redemptive history” came from the fact that it was at my mention of redemptive history last week that you accused me of not believing in regeneration and being a “wicked false teacher.”
First, I can only react to what Horton says, not to what you think he means. If he doesn’t plainly deny regeneration, we should not assume he rejects it, especially since he clearly writes about those who are “regenerate.” That seems to be a pretty good clue.
I would like to see the quote in context in which he denies that regeneration is part of the gospel. Understood properly, I would have to agree that regeneration is not part of the gospel. It is certainly “good news” that God has accomplished such a work in us, but it is not the gospel we preach to sinners. Regeneration is rather God’s work that makes the gospel effective.
I probably need a quote from someone who says “EVERY verse in the Bible is about Christ and the gospel.” That would be a stupid thing to say. I don’t think “Jacob sod his pottage.” is about Christ and the gospel and I don’t think anyone else does either.
I am not sure who the quote in your latest post is from or what you are trying to say in posting it. Maybe you could tell me what you find wrong with the statement, or if you like the statement, and I can agree or disagree. On the face of it, I think the statement is fine.
Regarding the initial quote from Horton [Is this the same Horton who hears a who?] , it appears to me he is simply accurately mirroring the Apostle Paul’s words in 2 Cor. 3:18, “but we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from one stage of glory to another, even as by the Lord, the Spirit.” This glory of God is seen in the face of Jesus Christ, as God has revealed him to us in the gospel. It is as we gaze on THAT glory, not the fading glory of the ministry of death, the covenant written on tables of stone (2 Cor. 3:7-13) that the Spirit conforms us to the image of Christ
The Apostle wrote to those Galatians who were becoming enamored by the Mosaic law, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only would I learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish, having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh” ( Gal 3:1-3).
This does not mean we are quiescent in the process of sanctification. Because God works in us to will and do what pleases him, we work out our salvation [sanctification] with fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12-13).
I know this is your site, and I can’t make the rules for it, but these are the rules I will be posting on my site. It might be beneficial if we all followed them:
1. Be respectful. If you don’t tell me I have an unregenerate heart and that I am a wicked false teacher, I won’t tell you you’re ugly and your mother wears combat boots.
2. You can’t tell me what I believe. I will tell you what I believe and then you may react to that, not to what you think I might believe.
3. Each person must define the other person’s position to that person’s satisfaction before he may object to it or comment on it.
4. If you want to allege that a person believes a certain doctrine, you must produce complete and somewhat extensive citations from that person’s writings to demonstrate your claims.
5. Deal with one issue at a time. Don’t raise another issue until you have adequately responded to the answer you have received to the last question. Once a question has been discussed to both parties’ satisfaction, then and then only should we move on to a different question. Remember, a fool can raise more questions in five minutes than a wise man can answer in a lifetime.
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Gerry,
My response above has nothing to do with your analysis using BMI. Your assessment is much more accurate than mine. My larger point is that “they who live by the sword, shall die by the sword.”
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Randy:
My comment directed to “My Dear Brother” was directed, first, to Paul, whose children I speak of , are both obese, as is clear from the facts..
I didn’t bother to read your whole comment because when I got to the “unidirectional person you are” comment, which direct at me, I know you have misread my whole post, twisted it’s meaning, and refused it’s counsel, the very things which you accuse others of doing on this blog repeatedly..
The simple fact of the matter is, further, that when I direct my comments to “My Dear Brother”, they are to be received by any and all who are such, for what I have said is truth, pure as it can be, and is offered, as I stated clearly, in love.
Further, I think that what I have said about the matter of gluttony is “what no one is talking about in the church”, certainly as much, and in my view, more, than Hortons comment, though I find many things wrong with his comment also.
On the whole, I find some of what Paul says on this blog to be right on the money, and very important, especially as it relates to the matter of “anomia”, and it’s symptoms, but I think like all believers he has things to learn. I find truth mixed in with what you point out also, as your comment about the weight of Paul’s sons bears out. But what worries me is that the truth you point out to Paul in the matter of the obesity of his sons seems to be intended to tear him down rather than to build him up. I find truth mixed in with what MacArthur and Piper and many say, but I don’t believe any of them see the lawlessness that they partake in as the central error it is. If lawlessness were important to you, as indeed it should be, if this is the central characteristic of the Antichrist, then it seems to me that you would pause, pray, think, fast, repent, and so on rather than fire off another angry, hasty comment which you have done here, and which, by the way, I have also done on these forums years ago, until the Holy Spirit showed me I was doing so, convicted me of same, and had me go off and do the same things I recommend to you today, before I comment again. Do just wish to win an arguement with a man, or do you wish to be pleasing to God? Do you seek the honor of men, or the honor of God only?
And thanks for your aknowledgement that my assessment of BMI being more accurate, to which I account the work of the spirit, both in my EXTREEMLY brief mention of the matter, of which He taught me, and also of your recognition of the same, which tells me He is still speaking to you, and that is a good sign that your heart is not entirely deadend.
As to living by the sword, you are quite right if by that you are saying that in the matter of gluttony, one who does engage in it will reap the fruit of their behaviour. Indeed they will, for “your sin will find you out” And I believe sin will find us out in this life, and also in the next, though the timing of it, and extent of it, in this life, varies with the spiritual status of the one committing it, and also, of course, on the Sov of God.
Offered, once again, in love,
In Him,
gerry
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