Open Discussion: The Horton Statement That Nobody Wants To Talk About
Christless Christianity, page 62:
“Where we land on these issues is perhaps the most significant factor in how we approach our own faith and practice and communicate it to the world. If not only the unregenerate but the regenerate are always dependent at every moment on the free grace of God disclosed in the gospel, then nothing can raise those who are spiritually dead or continually give life to Christ’s flock but the Spirit working through the gospel. When this happens (not just once, but every time we encounter the gospel afresh), the Spirit progressively transforms us into Christ’s image. Start with Christ (that is, the gospel) and you get sanctification in the bargain; begin with Christ and move on to something else, and you lose both.”
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Gerry,
If you can lower yourself for a bit and speak “to a liar” and “a messenger of Satan.” perhaps you can explain to me what the Apostle meant when he wrote, “As many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW, will also perish without law” (Rom 2:12), and “For when the Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature, things contained in the law, although not having the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the work to he law written in their hearts, . . . ” (Rom 2:14). If we are all born under the Ten Commandment, how can the Gentiles be without the 10 Commandments? Now, I have no question that, in creating Adam in His image, God imparted to him a knowledge what it meant to be righteous and what it meant to be unrighteous [BTW, calling a fellow believer in Christ a messenger of Satan might fall under the category of unrighteous]. In my view, that involved Adam’s supreme duty [oops a four letter word] to love God with all his heart, soul, and mind and its concomitant commandment, you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Matt 23:37-39). Please notice Jesus did not say these two commandments are a summary of the Ten Commandments. He said, “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (v.40). Please notice that neither of these commandments is taken from the Ten Commandments. The command to love your neighbor is taken from the so called civil law. Now, these two commandments find expression in different forms under various covenant [by covenants I, in keeping with the biblical meaning of the term, am referring to unilateral arrangements that God imposes at various times]. In constituting Adam the representative head of the human race, He expressed these two laws in one commandment. It was very simple; Don’t eat of the tree. He didn’t need a Sabbath since toilsome labor didn’t exist until after the fall. Had he not sinned, he would never have needed to rest. Adultery wasn’t a big problem since he didn’t have anyone to commit it with. Eve was the only one he could steal from and what did he need to steal? Paul wrote, “The law is not made for a righteous man;” and Adam was, at the time, a righteous man. All he had to do was enjoy the garden and stay away from the tree. If he didn’t stay away from the tree, he would demonstrate that he didn’t love God or his [only] neighbor since she, along with him, because represented by him, would die spiritually and be cast out of the garden. This same law (love to God and neighbor) existed after Adam fell. How one is to demonstrate his love for God and his neighbor is specified by the specific covenant under which one finds himself. Under the Mosaic covenant eating bacon, for example, was to be considered as much a lack of love for God as committing adultery. The sign of that covenant was the Sabbath observance. The sign of the New Covenant is the communion cup. The law of God continues as the requirement for us to love God and neighbor The definition of what it means to love God and neighbor is found the words of Christ and the Apostles. The Apostle Paul tells us “all the law is fulfilled in one word, you shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal. 5:14). The same is true in Rom. 13:8–“for he who loves another HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.” He did not write, “He who loves his neighbor WILL KEEP the law, or will fulfill the law.” But, how can we know if we really love God and our neighbor? Are we left to our subjective impulses as to what is right and wrong? Of course not! The words of Christ and the Apostles give us a perfect description of what it means to love God and neighbor.
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Gerry,
That was a very mature response. Now, try answering the questions. I dare you.
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All I have to say is it’s nice for somebody other than me to be taken the heat on this blog. Go Gerry!
> —–Original Message—– >
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Paul,
Maybe you should be man enough to actually interact with what I have written, but then, of course. you might take some heat.
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To any who may be reading this blog:
I said that I would not speak any more with those whom appear to be Satan’s agents because it is a waste of God’s time to do so. And so I will not.
To illustrate God’s goodness and his keeping of his promises, permit me to share with you one of the ways He has done so for me in the midst of this rather unpleasant exchange with that agent.
In order to cast doubt (in my mind and yours) on God’s truth as taught by His servant Bunyan, I received the following communication:
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R. Seiver said, on June 12, 2011 at 10:46 pm Gerry,
You need to read Bunyan again. I think you will be surprised about what you find.
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Anyone can see that the words are those of one who professes, to know more than me about what Bunyan has said, and in fact, those words imply that I have missunderstood what Bunyan says.
Now, I know this is not correct, but in order to keep others who may not be as familiar with Bunyan from being confused, I went and posted a small section of what Bunyan had said on on this blog so others could see for themselves that the messenger of lies who has done this is once again helping the one “who is the author of confusion”, not God, “who is a God of order”.
Well, praise God! For in his Word He makes the following Promise:
“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.” Rom 8:28 KJV
I say Praise God, for even though reading the messages of this evil person is quite unpleasant, still God has “worked this together for good in my life in the following way.
After I had posted the short excerpt from Bunyan’s piece to this blog, I recieved notice from another believer ( Paul) that it had been made a blessing to his soul, which was an answer to prayer and a great encouragement to me. Also, while rereading Bunyan’s words, which activity was graciously accompained by the Spirit of God, once again made my heart glad and rejoice at the truth of His Holy Word, and it’s unity, purity, wonder and glory, and it’s power to bless, instruct, lead and to keep from error and the grave dangers associated with false teachers and their lies. These blessed thoughts and feelings all came as I reread, as I said, Bunyan’s expostion of the scriptures in the matter.
Also, since it had been several years since I had read Bunyans work, I had was also blessed to have my memory refreshed and strengthened as I continued to reread the entire Doctrine once again. I couldn’t wait to get in from work and read once again what God the Father has done in covenanting with the Son, “before the foundation of the World” in the overarching covenant of Grace to save a poor sinner like me, and all my brothers and sisters in Christ, like Bill and Paul, Once again, as I read, God’s Spirit brought to light with spiritual power the meaning of His Words with respect to this covenant, and how the Word describes all of this in deteail, and how it all makes perfect sense. And as I worked during the day I was filled with praise and thanksgiving that the Lord had chosen me, a most undeserving wretch by nature, to understand these things, and also one who for nearly 27 years was mislead by the false teaching of one very much like the one who casts doubt on Bunyans message on this blog, and who also constantly attacks and criticizes Paul’s insights, on this blog. Oh what a gracious God to deliver me from the “mouth of Lions”.
At one point as I was praying from the Psalms the Lord made clear to me that the following words of the Psalmist applied to this situation:
“Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked: for they cast iniquity upon me, and in wrath they hate me.” Psa 55:3 KJV
And so He used His precious Word once again to guide and strengthen me.
And so we have another example of the manifestation of Gods promises to one of His Children “to work all things” even unpleasant things, and things designed by the “powers of wickedness in the heavnly places” to curse, to instead be a blessing. God is Good, and always keeps His promises!!!.
I’m reminded of the words of another blessed servant of God, who correctly understood the place of God’s Holy Law and it’s proper place along side the covenant of grace, John Newton, a wretch like me, and Paul the apostle, who was brought to understand the correct interpretation of Paul’s words there in Romans 7 about being a “wretched man”, and so incorporated the words into one of the greatest doctrinal hymns ever written: “Amazing Grace”.
“Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see.
Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved
How precious did that grace appear, the hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares, I have already come,
Tis grace hath led safe thus far, and grace will lead me home.
And when this flesh and heart shall fail, and mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil, a life of joy and peace.
When we’ve been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less day to sing God’s praise, than when we first begun”.
Un fortunately, millions who sing it and quote it now in these days leading up to the great “apostacia” , have no idea what Newton meant by the words, for they know and have not his correct understanding of scripture, being led astray by false teachers, such as the one who has made known his character here..
That same false teacher, will probably, if I don’t preempt him, read the words to the hymn, and seeing a convenient but deceptive opening, use that opening to insist that John Newton says nothing about the Law in the words of the hymn, and in fact, over and over emphasizes grace, even to the exclusion of the Moral Law. Yes, that’s what one who doesn’t know “the whole counsel of the Word of God” would be expected to say, for such ones omit words they don’t want to hear, and twist those they can’t avoid hearing, as we have witnessed repeatedly on this blog.
Hear, therefore, John Newtons words with respect to the preaching and understanding of the Moral Law and it’s companion truth, the Gospel:
“Clearly to understand the distinction, connection and harmony between the Law and the Gospel, and their mutual subserviency to illustrate and establish each other, is a singular privilege, and a happy means of preserving the soul from being entangled by errors on the right hand or the left.”
I found Newton’s quote in the following piece written by Tom Ascol and published on the Founders Ministry site, and I think it makes a lot of pertinant points, and for that reason, I have copied it and posted it here as follows:
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The Ten Commandments have made a lot of news in America over the last few years. When Roy Moore took office in 2001 as the chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court he commissioned and installed in the state Supreme Court building a granite monument with the Commandments inscribed on it. Despite a federal court order, Judge Moore refused to remove the display. Only after the Supreme Court of the United States heard the case did the 5280 pound monument vacate the premises.
Despite their eviction from the Supreme Court building in Alabama, the Ten Commandments, or at least the public display of them on monuments and placards, have continued to be a source of cultural angst for conservative Christians across our land. The removal of such displays from the public square has become a rallying cry for conservatives whose passion is to “keep America one nation under God,” as the Ten Commandments Commission (TCC) recently put it.
Those behind this commission circulated a petition this spring proclaiming the second annual “Ten Commandments Day” in America. Part of their call included the following:
We, the members of the Ten Commandments Commission and supporting people of faith, proclaim The Ten Commandments Day on the first Sunday in the month of May, commencing on Sunday, May Sixth of 2007.
Furthermore, we proclaim the Ten Commandments Day to be a day dedicated for the display, awareness, commemoration and celebration of the Decalogue which we know to be the divine foundation of the Judeo-Christian faith.
We, the members of the commission, serve as a cohesive group of spiritual leaders representing millions of followers who affirm the beauty and the uniqueness of our differences. We believe that rooted in the Ten Commandments is a Divine plan that transcends color and diversity in cultural expression, sanctions brotherhood of man and respects expressions in all of God’s children.
We, who serve as a council of leaders, are committed to utilizing our united passion to provide purpose and direction for reversing the enormous tide of immorality continuing to be released throughout the United States of America, and on all continents of the world. This unified voice will culminate annually on the Ten Commandments Day and provide for a united, global, spiritual platform based on the Ten Commandments. This platform will respond to the call echoed throughout creation for a true expression of love, harmony and reconciliation among all nations, ethnic diversities and genders through education and rededication to the moral standard as given by our Loving Creator.
Therefore, we are calling on all community and spiritual leaders; churches, synagogues, fellowships, ministries, organizations and all who care about moral values, to celebrate the annual Ten Commandments Day by hosting local events in support of the Ten Commandments and what they represent.[1]
I greatly appreciate the motivation and concerns of those who are behind these efforts. Several years ago our own church went door-to-door in our city giving out frame-worthy posters with the Commandments printed on them. We presented nicely framed wall-hangings to many civic leaders in town.
I do not believe that the gospel can be preached in its fullness and beauty without a clear understanding of God’s law. I agree with John Bunyan when he said, “The man who does not know the nature of the law cannot know the nature of sin. And he who does not know the nature of sin cannot know the nature of the Savior.” Furthermore, I am not convinced that J. Gresham Machen was overstating the case when he wrote in What is Faith?
A new and more powerful proclamation of [the] law is perhaps the most pressing need of the hour; men would have little difficulty with the gospel if they had only learned the lesson of the law…. So it always is; a low view of law always brings legalism in religion; a high view of law makes a man a seeker after grace. Pray God that the high view may again prevail.[2]
Because of my convictions in this area some might find it surprising to learn that I am not a fan of many of the efforts to promote the publication of the Ten Commandments in the public square. My lack of enthusiasm has nothing to do with a lack of appreciation of the law. Neither do I doubt the role of the law in restraining sin in society. I think it would be wonderful if there were a greater consciousness of the Ten Commandments throughout our society. Nevertheless, efforts like those of the TCC strike me as ill-conceived and ultimately self-defeating for at least two reasons.
First, such efforts seem to confuse the role of both the law and the gospel. In a recent email celebrating the success of the second Ten Commandments Day, the TCC founder wrote, the day “was celebrated nationally by thousands of citizens, Christians and Jews, who seek to keep America One Nation Under God and reaffirmed their commitment to the Word of God by signing the Ten Commandments Proclamation.”
America has never been a Christian nation though it has been a nation tremendously blessed in its past by vital Christianity and faithful Christian citizens. While I love my fellow citizens who are not Christian I cannot pretend that any regard for deity that does not submit to the revelation of God in trinity as revealed by the eternal Son of God is an acknowledgement of the only true God. Linking arms with anti-Trinitarians to make America one nation under a generic, and therefore, unbiblical God is hardly appropriate for followers of Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, to suggest that the signature of a faithful Jew on the Ten Commandments indicates his or her reaffirmation of “commitment to the Word of God” means that the “Word” envisioned is something significantly less than the 66 books that Christians regard as inspired. What faithful Jew regards the New Testament as “the Word of God”?
While Jews, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons would all affirm the Ten Commandments in some sense, only Christ-followers can possibly understand the real purpose and place of God’s law in the revelation of salvation. As Ken Puls illustrates in his article on “Christ and the Sabbath,” the law of God is all about Jesus Christ (Luke 24:27, 44–45). Apart from this understanding of the law, the best that those who trumpet the Ten Commandments can ever hope for is a moralistic society.
While I suppose that it is indeed better to live in a moralistic society than in an immoral one, neither would constitute living in “one nation under God.” My fear is that many Christians who are getting caught up in the public display of the Ten Commandments do not understand this. What our nation needs cannot be delivered by the law of God. Our situation is so desperate that our only hope is revival and revival will only come through the proclamation of the gospel.
When the gospel comes in power the results will not be moralism but renewal in every realm, including our morality. God’s law will once again be honored but not as an end in itself that is viewed exclusively or even primarily as a standard for outward conduct. Rather it will be seen by Christians as an expression of our gracious God’s will for His people and will be embraced from the heart. They will proclaim it not as a way to get people or nations right with God but as His unchangeable standard of righteousness by which every person will be judged. When Christians live in that way society will be positively impacted far beyond what any “celebration” of the Ten Commandments can ever achieve.
A second reason that recent parading of the Ten Commandments does not excite me has to do with a glaring oversight on the part of those who are leading the cause. Whom has God charged with the responsibility to be the “pillar and ground of truth?” The church (1 Timothy 3:15). The church has a stewardship that involves both defending and proclaiming God’s truth—including the truth of His law. Yet, how can this be done when most of those who visibly identify themselves cannot even name the Ten Commandments, much less explain them?
Antinomianism—both doctrinal and practical—has eroded the biblical teaching of God’s law in many, if not most, of the evangelical churches in our country. It strikes me as odd, to say the least, to see many who theologically have dismissed the law from their theology of grace and salvation line up to bang the drum for getting the Ten Commandments prominently displayed in public places. Various forms of Dispensationalism have little if any use for the Ten Commandments as an abiding standard of God’s righteousness. Yet some of the staunchest defenders of those types of Dispensationalism are also the loudest spokesmen for getting the Commandments back in courtrooms and classrooms.
Nowhere does this inconsistency become more evident than at the point of considering the fourth Commandment. The whole “Sabbath issue” tends to be very divisive among evangelicals who care enough even to think about it. Even among those who believe that the Ten Commandments have an abiding relevance to this Gospel age there are many who balk at taking the fourth Commandment seriously.
Some of that hesitation is understandable. In the new covenant we most certainly are not under any obligations to keep a Jewish Sabbath, as our brothers and sisters under the old covenant were. Throughout history there have been well-meaning teachers who seemingly did not make that distinction very clear in their advocacy of a “Christian Sabbath.” Reactions against teachings that were more suited to the old than the new covenant led to a complete rejection of any abiding Sabbath principle in this new covenant era.
While I am not convinced by the arguments of my brothers who take that position, I do wish that, when they talk positively about the Commandments that they would be consistent enough to speak of the “Nine Commandments” rather than the Ten. How many of those who are championing the public crusade for the “Ten Commandments” in our day have any serious commitment to the fourth one? I doubt if they would constitute even a sizable minority.
The Ten Commandments are more than a symbol. The same God who gave the gospel gave us His law. Those who know God and have been reconciled to Him through faith in Jesus Christ should seek to honor Him by believing the gospel and living according to His righteous requirements summarized in those Commandments. As John Newton wrote, “Clearly to understand the distinction, connection and harmony between the Law and the Gospel, and their mutual subserviency to illustrate and establish each other, is a singular privilege, and a happy means of preserving the soul from being entangled by errors on the right hand or the left.”[3]
Notes:
1 From the Ten Commandments Day website, http://www.tencommandmentsday.com/petition.php, accessed May 7, 2008.
2 J. Grecham Machen, What Is Faith? (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans, 1969), 141–142.
3 The Works of John Newton, vol. 1 (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1985), 350.
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May the Lord Bless and keep all who worship Him in spirit and truth, is my prayer,
In Him,
gerry
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Gerry,
I am happy the unfortunate experience of having to correspond with me has been turned into a positive experience for you by our Sovereign Lord.
One thing I found interesting in the remarks you made to the other two people who read this blog is that you seem to accept Bunyan and Newton as your authorities rather than the Scriptures. My questions stand. Additionally, you complete ignored my question about Bunyan’s statement that the Law was a covenant of works. Again, I didn’t intend to imply that Bunyan would share my views of the Law and when the 10 Commandments were originally given. But, I think you need to answer the question for yourself re: whether the Mosaic Law was a covenant of works or a part of an overarching covenant of grace.
In the final analysis, it doesn’t matter what Bunyan wrote or what I write. What matters is what the Scriptures teach. If you can’t find in the Scriptures what you have come to believe, you need to reject it. I don’t care whether you answer me or not, but I do want you to consider the questions I asked and answer them honestly before God.
I found a few of your statements very interesting:
“Our situation is so desperate that our only hope is revival and revival will only come through the proclamation of the gospel.”
I absolutely agree with your statement. We are not going to see any kind of spiritual awakening through the re-imposition of the Mosaic Law. Such a renewal will only occur through a clear proclamation of the gospel in all its fulness. [I suspect your buddy won’t applaud you on that statement].
“In the new covenant we most certainly are not under any obligations to keep a Jewish Sabbath, as our brothers and sisters under the old covenant were.”
Huh? What did you say? A Jewish Sabbath? It wasn’t a Jewish Sabbath, it was part of the eternal, universal, moral law of God. It was clearly articulated to Adam and Eve in the garden and since it is eternal I guess it doesn’t change. I have news for you my friend, if it is a moral absolute you must observe it exactly as the Israelites practiced it.
“How many of those who are championing the public crusade for the “Ten Commandments” in our day have any serious commitment to the fourth one? I doubt if they would constitute even a sizable minority. ”
Just my point. Virtually no one takes the 4th commandment seriously, including Walter Chantry who didn’t discipline church members who ate out after church on Sundays. That is the only one of the 10 commandments that is not repeated in the NTS. If your side doesn’t take it seriously, I guess we aren’t that far apart after all.
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Gerry,
Oh, by the way, it was not only our brothers and sisters who were required to keep the Sabbath under the OC. The recalcitrant rebels who made up the majority of the nation were also required to keep it.
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Hi liebe Männerwelt! bin auf diesemfür mich neuem Weg auf der Suche nachein bisschen Unterhaltung. Ganz nach der Devise Probieren geht über studieren! Vielleicht wird was Intensives draus, vielleicht auch nicht – lass es uns einfach mal in Angriff nehmen. Diesen Sommer möchte ich wirklich in vollen Zügen genießen. Ich bin übrigens 26 und auch mobil mit meinem kleinen Golf Cabrio *freu* Mit den Richtlinien in diesem Forum bin ich nicht wirklich vetraut und mir nichtmal sicher, ob ich hier überhaupt so etwas schreiben darf… deswegen hab ich hier einfach eine Anzeige gepostet, dort kann man mir auch direkt privat via Mail antworten: http://www.bravopost.net
Es ist natürlich völlig für lau. Ja, das hat mich auch gewundert. Abends ab 21:00 Uhr erreichst Du mich dort fast immer. Bin ehrlich gesagt, auch schon ziemlich Alleine und will etwas Neues erleben. Bin halt neu in der Stadt.
Meld dich doch bei mir!
lg
Helene
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Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch.
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