Where is the Church Doctrine of Interim Salvation?
There is no difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. Both focus on the need to deal with “present sin” and the supposed authority of the church being efficacious for that purpose. Catholics call it the “sacraments,” while Protestants call it the “ordinary means of grace.” Clearly, in both cases, there is no maintaining of salvation without the church. Again, I will repeat, as I often do, that Catholics are more honest about it while Protestants deliberately hide the fact. We also contend that salvation is a onetime finished work by God inside the believer obtained by faith that does not have to be maintained.
So, other than the other run-of-the-mill life events that keep us from going to church, of late, we have the Coronavirus. There is a lot of spiritual cheerleading going on as a result, but conspicuously absent is discussion of how “Christians” keep themselves saved apart from church. Can atonement take place apart from church? And if it can, how? As another aside, we would contend that sin is not covered, but ended.
It seems that there would be a formal doctrine that addresses this. However, there does seem to be an unspoken doctrine of sorts: if you can’t attend church through no fault of your own, God will forgive your sins apart from the church. But, with that said, shouldn’t there be a stated doctrine of some sort? Priests and Protestant pastors alike have stern warnings for professing Christians who “think they don’t need church.” Yet, when access to church is blocked, there seems to be no doctrine of interim atonement spoken of.
I at least have a partial answer for this. As a former Southern Baptist pastor, I can tell you that many, many, many Baptists believe they are saved by being a member of a church whether they show up or not. This is an irrefutable fact that I saw and experienced firsthand for years. Formal church membership coronated by water baptism supplies an ongoing cleansing for “present sins.” Those who “show up for church every time the doors are open” are a spiritual elitist class of Christians and not “casual Christians.” They are of the “devout” class.
Where in the world would Protestants get that idea? Well, from Protestant orthodoxy. Protestant orthodoxy has always held that “present sin” removes one from salvation without ongoing repentance leading to forgiveness that can only be found in the church:
“Moreover, the message of free reconciliation with God is not promulgated for one or two days, but is declared to be perpetual in the Church (2 Cor. 5:18, 19). Hence believers have not even to the end of life any other righteousness than that which is there described. Christ ever remains a Mediator to reconcile the Father to us, and there is a perpetual efficacy in his death—viz. ablution, satisfaction, expiation; in short, perfect obedience, by which all our iniquities are covered” (The Calvin Institutes: 3.14.11).
“Nor by remission of sins does the Lord only once for all elect and admit us into the Church, but by the same means he preserves and defends us in it. For what would it avail us to receive a pardon of which we were afterwards to have no use? That the mercy of the Lord would be vain and delusive if only granted once, all the godly can bear witness; for there is none who is not conscious, during his whole life, of many infirmities which stand in need of divine mercy. And truly it is not without cause that the Lord promises this gift specially to his own household, nor in vain that he orders the same message of reconciliation to be daily delivered to them” (The Calvin Institutes: 4.1.21).
“To impart this blessing to us, the keys have been given to the Church (Mt. 16:19; 18:18). For when Christ gave the command to the apostles, and conferred the power of forgiving sins, he not merely intended that they should loose the sins of those who should be converted from impiety to the faith of Christ; but, moreover, that they should perpetually perform this office among believers” (The Calvin Institutes: 4.1.22).
“Secondly, This benefit is so peculiar to the Church, that we cannot enjoy it unless we continue in the communion of the Church. Thirdly, It is dispensed to us by the ministers and pastors of the Church, either in the preaching of the Gospel or the administration of the Sacraments, and herein is especially manifested the power of the keys, which the Lord has bestowed on the company of the faithful. Accordingly, let each of us consider it to be his duty to seek forgiveness of sins only where the Lord has placed it. Of the public reconciliation which relates to discipline, we shall speak at the proper place” (Ibid).
“Q87: What is repentance unto life?
A87: Repentance unto life is a saving grace, whereby a sinner, out of a true sense of his sin, and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, doth, with grief and hatred of his sin, turn from it unto God, with full purpose of, and endeavour after, new obedience” [the newly applied obedience of Christ in response to re-repentance] (Westminster Shorter Catechism (1674).
“. . . forgiveness of sins is not a matter of a passing work or action, but comes from baptism which is of perpetual duration, until we arise from the dead” (Luther’s Works: American ed.; Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press; St. Louis: Concordia, 1955, vol. 34, p. 163).
“. . . Forgiveness of sins is not a matter of a passing work or action, but of perpetual duration. For the forgiveness of sins begins in baptism and remains with us all the way to death, until we arise from the dead, and leads us into life eternal. So we live continually under the remission of sins. Christ. is truly and constantly the liberator from our sins, is called our Savior, and saves us by taking away our sins. If, however, he saves us always and continually, then we are constantly sinners” (Ibid, p.164).
“On no condition is sin a passing phase, but we are justified daily by the unmerited forgiveness of sins and by the justification of God’s mercy. Sin remains, then, perpetually in this life, until the hour of the last judgment comes and then at last we shall be made perfectly righteous” (Ibid, p.167).
“For the forgiveness of sins is a continuing divine work, until we die. Sin does not cease. Accordingly, Christ saves us perpetually” (Ibid., p.190).
“Daily we sin, daily we are continually justified, just as a doctor is forced
to heal sickness day by day until it is cured” (Ibid., p.191).
Protestants howl in protest at the idea they teach progressive justification that can only be found in church. But I must ask, what is it to be continually “justified” daily for “daily” sin?
The best answer I have for all of this follows: the best salvation insurance underwritten by church is Catholicism. If you can’t go to church to get daily justification, you can fall back on purgatory.
True, you need church going on to get people out of purgatory, so, I would suggest churches focus on that heavily in-between things like the Coronavirus. People unable to obtain the church’s authority over salvation are counting on it.
At any rate, good luck with the whole hot mess.
paul
Neo Politics, Coronavirus, and the Coming 2020 Mother of All Landslides
I have followed politics since I was a nine year old Barry Goldwater conservative. One thing has always characterized my view of the American electorate: cynicism. It was obvious from the beginning that Jimmy Carter would be a disaster. The American people elected him anyway. Everyone knew Bill and Hillary Clinton are corrupt. The American people elected them anyway. Everyone knew Barak Obama had a negative view of America. The American people elected him anyway.
I could never figure it out, until now. For the most part, like me, the electorate has been cynical and unenergized. Look, for some time, at least forty years, everyone knew political promises are made to be broken; we came to expect it. George Bush’s infamous “read my lips” was merely political business as usual. Even more frustrating was the following: Ronald Reagan clearly demonstrated that a smaller government empowers America and its people.
However, knowing the brilliance of the founding fathers of America, who put a failsafe constitution in place leading to a very resilient America, we have always figured we could keep America afloat by voting for the least of two evils. Hence, we made up enough of the electorate to keep things close. Question: who was the last Democrat to win an election by a landslide? See what I mean? The problem has always been inactivity by commonsense Americans who are fed-up with looking and acting “presidential” being more important than keeping promises. The icing on the cake was watching the Bush’s frolic with people who obviously hate this country and everything it stands for in the name of “civility.”
Donald Trump has changed all of that. Finally, a leader who says what he means and means what he says. He not only keeps promises, but doesn’t let opposition from others stop him from fulfilling his promises. It’s the fulfilling of promises times two because he doesn’t use opposition as an excuse to not get the job done. In other words, he views campaign promises as his job description. In the business world, you either get the job done or you don’t, period. This is how Trump is running the country and it is more than we could ever hope for.
Moreover, his unceremonious disrespect for those who disagree with him is balm for years of frustration. It’s payback for those who make America work while being dismissed as worthless grunts by elitists. Oddly, regardless of Trump’s pedigree, we hear, “He’s one of us!”
It’s why the Russia hoax didn’t work. It’s why the Ukraine hoax didn’t work, and it’s why the Coronavirus fear mongering hoax to trash the economy is not going to work, but this time with an added twist.
Everyone knows this virus is being exaggerated so that Trump doesn’t get credit for a good economy, but meanwhile, it has robbed thousands of Americans from once in a lifetime family experiences. This is going to backfire bigtime. Trump has no choice but to send the Navy Seals to take care of a schoolyard bully, but more than likely, it is going to put a quick stop to this virus and Trump will get all of the credit. Meanwhile, people will remember what the exaggerated response costed them personally. This is a political disaster for the Democrats. They have made it personal on ground level.
Have you noticed that Nancy Pelosi et al have changed their tune this week? It’s because they see it regardless of their TDS. In addition, consider that more than half of the people infected, even in China, are now recovered. Again, when the smoke clears, this is going to be a political disaster for the Democrats.
The character assignation and “political qualifications” playbook no longer works because the American electorate is no longer marginalized by the disenfranchised. Trump has begun an era of new politics, and it will result in the mother of all electorate landslides in 2020.
paul
Coronavirus: Another Reason Church is Silly
Don’t you know, God’s design for Christian fellowship is susceptible to every bump and pothole in the road of life. Supposedly. Of course, the problem begins with the whole concept of church, which is where you go to get more gas for your salvation gas tank for motoring closer and closer to “final justification.”
Yes indeed, church is God’s authoritative institution on earth for the overseeing of his salvation process, and meanwhile, the process is hindered by all kinds of natural disasters, dictatorships, genocide, and religious persecution. In some countries, if you want to murder a bunch of Christians, they will accommodate you by meeting at a certain advertised place, on a certain day, and at a certain time. In other countries, organized religion is against the law unless state approved. In Western culture, church seems like a perfect system because it fits the culture.
Sarcasm aside, Christian fellowship has nothing to do with a salvation process, and is designed in such a way to not be hindered by any bumps in the road of life. The most recent example is the Coronavirus pandemic. I find it interesting that on the one hand, church is critical for obtaining the “ordinary means of grace” under the authority of “God’s ordained ministers,” but on the other hand, where is the biblical exception for when the church building gets leveled by an F5 tornado?
Already, several churches have cancelled services until further notice, and in some states, executive orders to limit ALL social gatherings to 500 people or less are forthcoming in the near future. So much for separation of church and state.
Funny, when a church is shut down, you never hear a concern about where people are going to get their weekly justification, even though that is church orthodoxy in a nutshell.
What could happen to the mega-churches is particularly interesting. During a pandemic, you can’t have thousands of people gathered together three times a week. Also, the bulk of tithing takes place when people are at the services. Furthermore, things like pandemics effect the personal livelihood of parishioners to begin with, while the need to go to the church for financial help increases. Well, the church isn’t going to be able to help. Add these realities to the fact that churches have gargantuan budgets and most mega-churches survive financially on a month to month basis.
It’s interesting that there is no interim orthodoxy for not being able to go someplace and receive salvation on the installment plan from “God’s anointed.”
God’s family is a literal family and functions like a family. Gatherings are for studying God’s word, sharing a meal together, prayer, and encouraging each other unto good works. Multiple self-sustained households can also accomplish various things at utmost efficiency. Institutions, invariably, are funded by individual households anyway.
This doesn’t mean that there is no organization; there may not be authority, but all families are organized. During a pandemic, the family may not meet for awhile, but everything else would remain the same.
And because its not a public institution, home fellowships are underneath the radar of cultural dramas of all sorts.
paul
The Church Has No Bible
The constant Bible-speak among Churchians is laughable; there is no Bible in the church. “The Bible says in”…cite chapter and verse…this, that, and the other…is really what they hear from the pulpit on Sunday and nothing more or less.
At least Catholics are honest about it. On the other hand, it’s amazing to watch John MacArthur preach as mindless parishioners are told what the words they are looking at say. Again, I like the honesty of Catholicism; they don’t even bother bringing their Bibles to church, while Protestants mock God by doing so.
So, how did Biblicism become a lie in the Protestant church? Well, it always was a lie, but Protestants strayed away from the lie for awhile and a sort of half-pregnant Protestantism ensued for awhile. And during that time, the church was actually halfway decent, at least, some churches.
The Protestant Reformation was founded on a historical-redemptive interpretation of the Bible. What’s that? Well, since salvation is progressive according to Protestant orthodoxy, the Bible has one role and one role only: to aid the Christian in the progression of salvation. It’s a “redemptive” interpretation, get it? What does “redemptive” mean? Duh.
And how do we use the Bible for the progression of our salvation? Well, since we are still supposedly “sinners,” and as John Calvin and Martin Luther stated, present sin removes us from grace (read: salvation), we must return continually to the same gospel that saved us for re-justification. The sole purpose of the Bible is to “preach the gospel to ourselves every day.” Hence, every verse in the Bible is about the “saving works [note the plural] of Jesus.” The Bible is about “what Jesus did, not anything we do.” The Bible is the law that continually walks us back to the cross for more Jesus.
Thing is, most Protestants just wait for Sunday to hear a “gospel message” rather than to preach the gospel to themselves during the week. After all, that’s what we pay the preacher for, right?
Also, remember this: all of the quarreling about women pastors in the church boils down to the ability to re-condemn parishioners every week for purposes of leading them back to the cross. Seems to me that a woman can do that just as good as a man, if not better. Nagging in the pulpit by men every week in the church is rivaled by nothing.
Most pastors will claim they use the historical-grammatical interpretation method and they are either outright lying or don’t know what they are talking about. They may use a grammatical method to reach a redemptive conclusion regarding the text, but that’s not a true use of the historical-grammatical method.
It’s amazing to note the obvious: New Testament letters were read to the assemblies at large. The letters were not delivered to so-called pastors who then explained the letters to those assembled. Nor is there any indication in the Bible that such a format should be used in the assemblies moving forward.
Contemporary Christians know very little about the Bible because the knowledge of it is clearly doled out through the traditions of men. Christ said that makes the word of God void. There is no word of God in the church.
The Bible is about more than redemption. A free and collective study of the Bible by everyday Spirit indwelled Christians is the only way its treasures will be revealed.
paul
The Church and its Protected Child Rape Zone
via The Church and its Protected Child Rape Zone
“Come home to family in a family setting. Come home to leadership and not authority. Let us wrap our arms around your victims of tyranny and weep with them. Let us rejoice together in the one mind of Christ and his coming kingdom. Let us have the freedom to be persuaded in our own minds. Let condemnation vanish and let it give way to the law of love.
Let our appeal be to Christ alone who shares His glory and authority with no man. Let God be our Father, and Christ our brother who is not ashamed of us, but will return in His glory and slay the totally depraved and those who proudly call themselves, ‘sinners.'”

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