Aggressive Love Without Fear
It’s a matter of being free to aggressively love without fear. The whole problem with the church is it’s preoccupation with the uncertainty of eternal life. Calvinism’s way of dealing with it is, “Jesus does it for you.” The anti-Lordship way of dealing with it is “no commitment.” Jesus’ way of dealing with it is…”It is finished!” Doing keeps a clear conscience. Doing feeds the soul. We were created to do. My motives are pure…Jesus finished the work of salvation…this is all about love. But both camps tell us to cure our conscience and fear with more trust, with more faith alone because they see salvation as unfinished.
We have all said it: “Santifcation is the growing part of salvation.” No it isn’t. Salvation does not grow–the Chrsitian grows. Supposedly, work in sanctification is a work for justification. Yes, doing sanctification right so that we don’t mess up our justification is very tricky business. Doing by faith alone is very complicated. That’s why you need them. That’s why you pay the temple tax. That’s why you pay the philosopher kings. Just trust them and all will be well. People say to me…”Paul we all doubt our salvation.” Yes, and what a pity…for there is no fear in love. We doubt our salvation because we are closet progressive salvationists.
Stop “living by the gospel.” Stop preaching the gospel to youself. Stop talking about the gospel at church, and encourage eachother unto good works. Come out from among them and be free. Come out from among them and love.
paul
Indeed, Christianity can be VERY Annoying
How annoying is American Christianity to me right now? Well, being a Christian in Iraqi is looking pretty good to me right now. Instead of dying the death of a thousand cuts from theological debate, I could get my head blown off by the Middle Eastern version of Calvinism. Those ISIS guys are surprisingly ignorant in the ways of the European ideology of spiritual caste and determinism that drives their religion. Thank goodness they partake in the elementary ways of execution and have never studied Puritan history.
TANC and PPT are working hard at solidifying our Biblicism so that we can work on home fellowship networks and get on with the Lord’s business. Meanwhile, let’s ask the right question: 2000 years later, why is there so much confusion about what the gospel is?
I am totally convinced that the source of the confusion is the foundational idea that justification is not a finished work. God has eliminated any excuses here by stating that justification was finished before He even created the earth, but leave it to Gnostic brainiacs with four or five titles after their name to make the simplest of facts confusing. If they didn’t, what would you need them for? This is their greatest fear…not being needed. Nothing strikes more fear in their souls than the day that you discover that you can determine truth on your own (1John 2:27).
Lou I am ever learning but never coming to the truth Priolo stated it best: justification is like a computer program that runs in the background of the Christian’s life. Justification is not seen as an ended work with the Christian life (sanctification) being completely separate. Hence, you have the likes of John MacArthur Jr. stating that justification (salvation) and sanctification are “never separate, but distinct.” Mark it: that ancient idea is the very crux of the whole problem. That is the one and only reason for Jerry Springer blogosphere Christianity that presently dominates American Christianity. When we are not waiting with bated breath at the golden doors of The Gospel Coalition for the next spiritual unction from on high, we are at a spiritual Amway convention hosted by mystics like Beth Moore and Francis Chan.
We need them to guide us through the very tricky waters of maneuvering through a justification running in the background of sanctification. So, if we do not do sanctification just right, it will mess up our justification. We are not free to aggressively pursue love in sanctification; we must make sure we will “stand in the judgment.”
American Christianity is full of fear and paralyzed for this very reason. Instead of being about the Lord’s business, we are frantically running about on the internet and to conferences to make sure we are not “making the fruit of sanctification the ground of our justification.” Justification and sanctification are “never separate, but distinct.” What does that mean? It means they are fused, but justification has a beginning, and is distinct from sanctification because sanctification is justification that is running in the background.
Therefore, Christians ask all of the wrong questions, and work on all of the wrong problems, and remove no obstacle of confusion. While the fathers of Protestantism wrote outrageous anti-gospel statements in treatises like the Calvin Institutes that clearly point to the problem with their Progressive Justification, the debates center on “election” and bad behavior. And, the latest pain in my butt…
The lordship salvation debate.
For eight years, I have pretty much stayed away from this debate even though it has cost me some friends, and when you are in the process of declaring the institutional church and Protestantism in general illegitimate, you don’t have many of those to spare. The cure for the American church is a mass exodus from the institution back to what church was always meant to be, a fellowship of believers meeting informally in each other’s homes. This is also combined with good organization for targeted purposes; the concept is very efficient and powerful. It is the dismantling and utter rejection of spiritual caste. I don’t understand why Christians don’t want to be free. Why are we letting arrogant men dictate the relationship we have with the Christ who died for us? The arrogant bozo with the degree didn’t die for you—Christ died for you. Who made these guys Chief Shepherd?
Can you imagine seeking Christ together without spiritual caste and being free from all of the institutional drama? I hope you can. Almost four years ago, Susan and I left the institutional church and began an independent verse by verse study of the Book of Romans on our own. In the first six months, we learned more about Christ than both of us had ever been taught in the institutional church. That’s a combined eighty years of Christian experience. This is just the plain fact of the matter. We have been sold an institutional bill of orthodoxy written by spiritual tyrants. Even though the behavior of the Westminster “Divines” is historical fact, we follow there doctrine because “God’s anointed” say they are the exception to “by their fruits you will know them.” Why do we accept these contradictions? Because the “anointed” have replaced Christ.
And at least in one particular camp of the anti-lordship salvation crowd (ALS), listening to men apart from independent study has created quite the spectacle. Portending to be on the cutting edge of anti-Calvinism, their soteriology is no whit different from Calvinism whatsoever. I will continue to state that the problem with Calvinism is progressive justification. So, what we have here is a group of likeminded Christians who are bashing Calvinism while believing the exact same gospel of progressive justification.
I think it is time to start calling out this sort of confusion among God’s people.
paul
Why I Saw Life in Jay Adams’ First Generation Counseling and Why Second Generation Counseling Will Only Lead to Death
“The Reformed gospel therefore circumvents the law of life by keeping the Christian under the law of sin and death, and denies that the Christian can have life, and have it more abundantly through obedience.”
“The law of sin and death is not a schoolmaster that leads the believer back to the cross—the schoolmaster is dead. We are set free to serve the law of the Spirit of life .”
I was saved in 1983, became a pastor in 1986, and found myself sitting in pastor John Street’s office circa 1990 in the throes of deep depression. This wasn’t supposed to happen to a Christian zealot. I was confused, and shell-shocked. I had suffered deep depression as an unbeliever, but this wasn’t supposed to happen to a believer.
John Street was on the cutting edge of Dr. Jay E. Adams’ biblical counseling movement that had begun in 1970 with his controversial book, Competent to Counsel. Street was the founding pastor of Clearcreek Chapel (Springboro, Ohio) which was also a pastoral training center for the movement. Street had some earthshaking assessments in regard to me:
1. My primary goal in life was not to please God.
2. I had changed little as a believer.
3. Hence, I brought the same sinful attitudes and thinking into my life which resulted in
the same depression I suffered as a believer.
4. I needed to understand that the power for Christian living was “in the doing.”
Because as a new Christian I was stupefied by the open sin displayed in the conservative evangelical church; viz, the first conservative church I joined had members living together out of wedlock, were openly hostile to African Americans, and some were drunkards, I was a rabid fan of John MacArthur Jr and his so-called “Lordship Salvation.” So, Street’s four-point assessment of me was a shocking revelation.
How could this be? Simply stated, I lived by biblical generalities and was woefully ignorant of how to live as a mature Christian. This is a Protestant thing which has traditionally emphasized salvation (justification), and not Christian living/sanctification/discipleship. Stop here for a moment. According to entrepreneur Herman Cain, leadership has three primary principles:
W. Work on the right problem.
A. Ask the right questions
R. Remove obstacles.
W. The problem is lack of emphasis of discipleship.
A. Why is there a lack of emphasis on discipleship?
R. What is the obstacle?
Dr. Adams didn’t ask the right question, but he did work on the right problem: weak sanctification, and a lack of emphasis on obedience to the Scriptures. The results were dramatic. In one year at Clearcreek Chapel, there were twelve solid conversions. Accounts of people being snatched from the jaws of suicide were commonplace. I eventually broke free from depression and discontinued taking anti-depressant medications. But my case needs some additional discussion.
During one appointment with Street, I began by giving a report on how hard I was working on my problem: “I have been in the Scriptures all week and prayed for three hours today! And the reply:
Paul, I am not going to tell you to not do those things, but the power is in the doing.
“Really?” I thought, “I can actually do something about my problem?” The counseling involved homework. I liked to go out to MacDonalds and do my homework, and while doing so one day, I pondered the following: “The Bible does indeed promise blessings (happiness) for being obedient. This is very hopeful, that I can actually do something to get my happiness back.”
Meanwhile, guess who walked in as I was thinking these thoughts? Street. I struggled with posing the question, perhaps due to the radical nature of it, but Street helped me out: “Paul, are you asking me if obedience to God’s word is curative?” My reply, “Yes.” He paused, I waited. I think we both thought that we were in danger of fire being rained down from heaven. Finally, he reluctantly replied: “Yes.”
Let’s ask the right question, shall we? Why is the concept of Christian obedience and the discussion of it so fearful, more taboo than sexual preferences? As a result of a nemesis that comes my way every now and then, specifically the anti-Lordship Salvation crowd, I think I now know. Usually akin to my disdain for Calvinism, they have accused me of works salvation because of my supposed proffering of Lordship Salvation. This is very annoying, but I have never stopped to investigate the logic behind their accusation, until now. My conclusions are applicable to thoughts I have on biblical counseling and are the subject of this post. But first, let’s revisit my fears as a former counselee.
Indeed, the Bible tells us to obey, but that raises a seemingly serious problem. If I obey as a Christian, how do I know for certain that my obedience really isn’t an attempt to justify myself? Until this week, I have always somewhat doubted that my “victory” over depression was legitimate. Let’s ask the right question, “Why the doubt?”
Because during the aforementioned trial, I perceived the law of God as one law, that’s why. I also had a fundamental misunderstanding about what the gospel really is as well. I saw salvation as believing that Christ died for my sins—end of story. Believe that, and then wait and see what happens. Well, in many cases, depression happens. In many cases, suicide happens. In many cases, a falling away from the Christian faith happens. And as poignantly expressed by my wife Susan at the 2012 TANC Conference, we hear, “Oh well, at least he was saved.” Her close to that stunning presentation on sanctification is worth repeating:
So Lovell lived like the devil, but at least he had his fire insurance policy, made effective because he walked the aisle, said the sinner’s prayer, and was baptized in the Big Sandy River. But I will have to agree with my dad. Only God really knows if Lovell was genuinely saved or not and resting in the bosom of Abraham. At my funeral, I hope more will be said about me than “at least, she was saved.”
However, we deem such unglorified testimonies for the Lord a small price to pay in exchange for robbing Christ of glory by thinking we can do something. Confusion on this issue is absolutely rampant, and I think the time has come for the confusion to stop.
Who will argue that there is not mass confusion in our day on the relationship of the law to salvation? Yes, let’s tell the world that we do not worship a God of confusion. Good luck with that; we don’t even know what the gospel is! The theses of this post lays blame for all of this confusion at the feet of the idea that there is only one law in the Bible. This misunderstanding then leads to confusion as to what people are called to—in regard to the “good news.” We want to work on the right problem by asking the right question and then removing the obstacle. The obstacle is the idea that there is one law, and making that idea consistent with the rest of Scripture is like trying to stick a round peg in a square hole. When the discussion is about how to make that work, good luck with obtaining any solutions—we are discussing the wrong questions.
The Fundamental Problem
…is that the law of God is only seen as death. In Romans 8:2, we clearly have two laws:
For the law [nomos] of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law [nomos] of sin and death.
For certain, the Reformers only recognized one law: the law of sin and death. They saw the one law as a perfect standard that defined justification—righteousness, or justification, is defined by a perfect keeping of the law. Since we cannot keep the law perfectly, it is only good for revealing our sin. According to Protestantism, the law…
1. Shows us our sin, thus ever increasing our gratitude for Christ’s death and obedient life
which fulfilled the law for us.
2. Will condemn unbelievers at the final judgment who are not “covered” by Christ’s
perfect obedience.
3. The Spirit gives us ongoing life in response to our continued living by faith alone.
Christ’s obedience is then perpetually imputed to our lives to keep us saved because a
continued satisfying of the law is needed. (See The Calvin Institutes 3.14.9-11).
What immediately comes to mind is Galatians 3:21;
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
The fact that the law cannot give life for “righteousness” i.e., justification, does not mean that the law cannot give life on any wise. Clearly it can, and does:
Matthew 4:4 – Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
Ephesians 6:1 – Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”
Psalms 1:1 – Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; 2 but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. 4 The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
The fundamental problem is that the law of sin and death is THE standard, or rule for being justified. This is the essence of Reformed thought: Christ not only died for our sins, but He lived a perfect life so that the demands of the law would be satisfied. This makes the law intrinsic with justification. Hence, believers must keep themselves saved by living by faith alone throughout their Christian lives. If they do this, the perfect obedience of Christ (His fulfilling of the law) is continually applied to the Christian life and the saint therefore remains justified. The Reformed think tank that spawned the present-day Neo-Calvinist movement stated it best:
The flesh, or sinful nature of the believer is no different from that of the unbeliever. “The regenerate man is no whit different in substance from what He was before his regeneration.” — Bavinck. The whole church must join the confession, “Have mercy upon us miserable sinners.” The witness of both Testaments is unmistakably clear on this point.
No work or deed of the saints in this life can meet the severity of God’s law. Apart from God’s merciful judgment, the good works of the saints would be “mortal sin” (Luther), and nothing is acceptable to God unless mediated through the covering cloud of Christ’s merits. Because of “indwelling sin,” we need mercy at the end as much as at the beginning, for the old nature is as evil then as ever. Growth in grace, therefore, does not mean becoming less and less sinful, but on the contrary, it means becoming more and more sinful in our own estimation.
It is this conviction of the wretchedness of even our sanctified state—which conviction comes by the law—that keeps sanctification from the rocks of self-righteousness. It keeps the Christian’s little bark constantly pointed toward his only star of hope—justification by faith in a righteousness that stands for him in heaven. The refuge of the sinner must ever also be the refuge of the saint.
The Holy Spirit gives the sinner faith to accept the righteousness of Jesus. Standing now before the law which says, “I demand a life of perfect conformity to the commandments,” the believing sinner cries in triumph, “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, His suffering and dying; mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, and suffered, and died as He did . . . ” (Luther). The law is well pleased with Jesus’ doing and dying, which the sinner brings in the hand of faith. Justice is fully satisfied, and God can truly say: “This man has fulfilled the law. He is justified.”
We say again, Only those are justified who bring to God a life of perfect obedience to the law of God. This is what faith does—it brings to God the obedience of Jesus Christ. By faith the law is fulfilled and the sinner is justified.
We are united to Christ in whom we are counted as perfectly righteous because of his righteousness, not ours. The demand for obedience in the Christian life is undiminished and absolute. If obedience does not emerge by faith, we have no warrant to believe we are united to Christ or justified (Matthew 6:15; John 5:28-29; Romans 8:13; Galatians 6:8-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:13;James 2:17; 1 John 2:17; 3:14). But the only hope for making progress in this radical demand for holiness and love is the hope that our righteousness before God is on another solid footing besides our own imperfect obedience as Christians. We all sense intuitively-and we are encouraged in this intuition by the demands of God-that acceptance with God requires perfect righteousness conformity to the law (Matthew5:48; Galatians 3:10; James2:10). We also know that our measures of obedience, even on our best days, fall short of this standard.
This is the fatal Achilles’ heel of Reformed thought: it makes the law intrinsic with justification when in fact we are justified APART from the law. This is what the apostle Paul meant when he said there is no law that can give life—it’s a justification issue, not an issue of Christian living. Secondly, it rejects the idea that the believer’s former self literally died with Christ and has been resurrected to new life. The apostle made it clear that the law of sin and death can only condemn those who are living and have not yet died with Christ (Romans 7:1-6). It denies the new birth, which has been a reality for the believer even before the cross (John 3:1-15).
The Reformed gospel therefore circumvents the law of life by keeping the Christian under the law of sin and death, and denies that the Christian can have life, and have it more abundantly through obedience. It denies blessings and cursings, fruits of life versus fruits of death, and the Christian’s ability to choose more life rather than suffering death for no good reason:
Due. 30:11 – “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”
Nothing has ever changed here. For the believer, obedience to the law brings life. The same law that condemns the unbeliever brings life to the believer…
Ephesians 6:1-3 – Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), 3 “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”
That’s Paul using an Old Testament command to illustrate a New Testament promise of life through obedience. For the unbeliever, the sins they commit against the law are held captive by the law, but when they believe, that law is ended when faith comes; the law that could only condemn now gives life:
Galatians 3:21 – Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
The idea that “guardian” means a “schoolmaster” who continually leads us back to Christ, and the foot of the cross by showing us our inability to keep the law perfectly is a popular Reformed rendering of this text, but that is not what is in view here. The Old Covenant imprisons all of the sin committed by those under it, and when they believe, that law is ENDED:
Romans 10: 4 – For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Christ didn’t come to cover our sins, He came to end our sins. The Old Covenant covered our sin, it was our guardian. But when we believe in Christ, the law of sin and death is abolished and we are set free to SERVE the law of the Spirit of life. This is the abundant love of Christ who did not come to condemn the world: even the law of condemnation is a guardian beckoning the unbeliever to flee the wrath to come by casting that law as far as the east is from the west—along with all of our sin committed against that covenant. The law of sin and death is not a schoolmaster that leads the believer back to the cross—the schoolmaster is dead. We are set free to serve the law of the Spirit of life.
Jay Adams didn’t ask the right question: “Where did all of this anemic Protestant sanctification come from?” But he did work on the right problem: living by biblical generalities rather than in-depth discipleship through learning and application. The results spoke for themselves.
Furthermore, the anti-Lordship Salvation crowd is probably asking the wrong questions as well as working on the wrong problem. They seem to strongly insinuate that a commitment to obedience within the gospel presentation is works justification because the subject is required to do something (agree to a commitment) in order to obtain eternal life.
This threatens to be the same law problem as Reformed thought; the idea that obedience does not bring life. If unbelievers are still under the law of sin and death, and every violation of that law is fruits for death, and we are calling them to flee that death for life, does that not necessarily include obedience that leads to life more abundantly? This seems to demand that only half of Romans 8:2 be presented in our gospel presentation lest it be a gospel of works justification. The cross sets us free to SERVE another master; Christ as opposed to the kingdom of darkness:
Romans 7:4 – Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
“So that.” “So that…” what? What is the purpose of calling people from darkness into the light? The purpose is “so that” we SERVE the new way of the Spirit. Consider what the word for “serve” is…
g1398. δουλεύω douleuō; from 1401; to be a slave to (literal or figurative, involuntary or voluntary):— be in bondage, (do) serve (- ice). AV (25)- serve 18, be in bondage 4, do service 3; to be a slave, serve, do service.
The gospel is a call to be set free from enslavement under the law of sin and death, and to enslavement to the law of the Spirit of life. Consequently, a call to a commitment to be enslaved to the law of the Spirit through obedience as a way to love God and others is a gospel of works righteousness? To notify the subject that they are set free from the fruits of death is ok, but to notify them that they will be a slave to righteousness is works salvation? What is the called out assembly called to? Are we called to holiness, or a label that enables us to yet be enslaved to darkness? Is enslavement to the law of the Spirit of life optional lest it be works righteousness? A jingle that we hear often from the Reformed crowd is the following: “When you are justified, you get sanctification in the bargain.” I wonder if it shouldn’t rather be: “When you are sanctified, you get justification in the bargain.” Justification is free, holiness is what we are called to from our former lawless master. What part of, “You cannot serve two masters” do we not understand? Granted, I say this to make a point, but I wonder if the church wouldn’t be better served as it is mostly populated with the unholy, unslaved saved.
And who are we being called to serve? Is Christ savior only? Or is He also a Lord? To inform a salvation candidate that Christ is not only a savior, but also a Lord is works righteousness? To insist that Christ be recognized for who He is—is a gospel of works? Nay, to love Christ is to recognize Him for who He is…
If you love me, keep my commandments.
You can be saved by Christ, but you don’t have to love Him? You can be saved by Him, but abundant life is optional? You can remain a slave to fruits of death, but enslavement to Christ is optional?
The Metaphysical Anomaly of Non-Works
I also fear that the anti-Lordship Salvation crowd has a kinship to the Reformed in regard to this whole business of defining what is a work and what isn’t a work. Mankind is created to work, and when people are alive, they are also working. Life is synonymous with work, man never ceases to work in this life unless he is dead. Hence, man is either producing fruits for death or fruits for life. Either way, he is producing. In regard to the biblical command to “repent and believe the gospel,” or to “obey the gospel,” the ALS crowd insists that this is not an action or a commitment to obey, but a mere “change of mind.” Granted, that is what the word means. But since when is a change of mind not a work? In order to have a change of mind, you must ponder and think—that’s not passive. It is simply impossible to get around the fact that something is required of man in order to be saved. At the very least, a choice is required; specifically, choosing life over death. But choosing life necessarily involves a commitment to obedience—there can be no life without it. The choice to choose life necessarily includes a commitment to future obedience and recognition of who Christ is.
Likewise, in the Reformed crowd, works and non-works are divided by “faith” and “obedience.” Since obedience cannot bring life, or produce fruits of righteousness, and perfect law-keeping by Christ must be imputed to our sanctification by faith alone to keep us saved, certain activities are classified as non-works (by faith) and works. Going to church, meditation, seeking to understand how depraved we are, and prayer are classified as faith while obedience is work. If we live by “faith alone,” primarily through gospel contemplationism, the perfect obedience of Christ will be imputed to our Christian life and we will remain justified. This is behind the contemporary mantras, “We must preach the gospel to ourselves every day,” and “living by the gospel” etc. Sorry, but preaching to yourself is a work, and in this case, to keep yourself saved because revisiting the cross supposedly imputes someone else’ s obedience to your sanctification. The only problem is…you have to do something for that to happen. Rather, Justification must be a finished work, period. Neither does it, “run in the background.”
In the same way, the ALS camp redefines repentance as a non-work of faith alone. This simply is not reality. Everything is a work. In addition, it would seem that a “change of mind” has nothing to do with what it means to be a Christian moving forward. To acknowledge any future expectations by the Lord, or a recognition of trading one slavery for another is a works gospel. If I tell them they are going to be a slave to righteousness, that’s works righteousness? That’s not a commitment to a new master? And if I tell them that it is, I’m propagating a works gospel? Leaving one master for another isn’t a commitment?
This is barely different than the Reformed gospel that they seemingly reject. In all of this discussion, I often hear that the gospel should be simple. I agree, and I would also ask how much more simplistic could “choose life” be? Ironically, it’s the unbelievers who have no problem with the simple concept of choosing to leave where they are for something else. Things get complicated because of the following idea: suggesting to an unbeliever that they can no longer serve their present master is a works gospel. To suggest that they have to move from point A where death resides, to point B, where life resides, is works righteousness.
The Day the Music Died
I witnessed a microcosm of the day that the “first generation” biblical counseling movement died. Pastor Street, with my clueless blessings as a Clearcreek Chapel elder, enrolled in the biblical counseling post graduate program at Westminster Theological Seminary East. The program curriculum was authored by a follower of John “Jack” Miller who was the father of the Sonship discipleship program. The author of the program, and also the director, Dr. David Powlison, is one of the forefathers of the present-day Neo-Calvinist movement.
Street used what he learned there to add a second level to the training program called “Theology of the Heart.” While the first level predicated on the in-depth discipleship principles of Adams was prolific, this second level was a monstrosity of confusion. The consensus of pastors leaving level one was, “Where has this information been all of my life” while no one really knew what to make of the second level. Some years later, a Clearcreek elder told me what Street thought of what he learned at Westminster: “This is where we have been missing it.” I don’t know if this particular elder, who is of ill character, was telling the truth, but the idea that Powlison’s construct was a better “second generation” version of the first was not a unique mentality in 1998.
Also, first generation biblical counseling leaders naïvely allowed disciples of Powlison to teach in their schools. By 2006, first generation biblical counseling was all but completely discredited. The stories of changed lives that came out of that revival were relegated to narratives about “super Pharisees.” Pastor Randy Patton once described the first generation as a movement that only “made people better Pharisees.” When I heard him say it, all of the saved marriages, saved lives, and salvation testimonies that I knew of, including my own, that came out of that movement flashed before my eyes, and then went up in flames before me. As one who grew up on mean streets, I can tell you that I had never experienced a more insensitive statement that brushed away years of joy with one stroke. Unfortunately, the second generation biblical counseling that now dominates the American church is characterized by this same insufferable arrogance.
What is this “second generation” biblical counseling? It is simply a counseling construct based on the original Reformed gospel stated in this post with emphasis on its denial that Christian obedience produces life, and life more abundantly. In the latter 90’s many, many pastors left Westminster and returned to their local churches proclaiming, “This is where we have been missing it.”
What is really missing is the life produced by the first generation biblical counseling. Life and love through intelligent biblical obedience has been replaced with David Powlison’s fruits of death. This is not complicated, in a seminar taught at John Piper’s church, Powlison plainly stated the difference between the first generation biblical counseling and the second: one promotes Christian living by returning to the cross for a refueling of Christ’s perfect obedience in order to satisfy the law, and the other leaves the foot of the cross for mature Christian living. The one returns to the cross to keep the law of sin and death satisfied—the other fulfills the law of the Spirit of life with acts of loving obedience.
Our Lord prefers obedience over sacrifice—this is something that the second generation purveyors of death will never understand. Mankind is always working. A choice to do nothing is not faith—it’s a choice that will either produce death or life. And it doesn’t matter who obeys the law in our place to keep us justified—there is no law that can give life no matter who keeps it. So, how do we know for certain that we are not trying to justify ourselves by obedience in our Christian life? Because law and justification are mutually exclusive to begin with, and justification is a finished work accomplished by God only. As Andy Young said in this year’s TANC Conference, “The law is for sanctification.” Indeed, especially since we have already been justified “apart from the law.”
Second generation counseling cannot therefore produce life. It can only produce death. All it is doing is making us better antinomians, and the judgment against it slumbers not. Do not be a participant with it on any level. It is only producing wages for death that will be paid in full. Instead, let us forge ahead in learning the Lord’s instruction and applying it to our lives. let us build lives that will withstand the storms of life. Let us meet together apart from vile antinomians and encourage each other unto good works. Let us love the Lord with all of our being.
paul
Addendum
Since everything man does is a work, let me suggest that the biblical definition of works righteousness, or salvation by works, is the idea that justification is not a finished work. If justification progresses into sanctification (the Christian life), or if the work of the cross continues, then our life and works are juxtaposed onto justification. This makes us colaborers in justification by default.
If there is a beginning justification, subjective justification (the experience of being justified), and a final justification, some sort of role in justification for the believer is unavoidable. For the Reformed, it’s the same faith alone that saved you which requires a decision to not do certain things lest it be works which is in fact doing something. As one pastor stated to me: “New Calvinists tell us: ‘Don’t live by do’s and don’ts.’” See the point? If works salvation is defined by unfinished or unrealized justification, definitions of supposed non-works and works become necessary. I contend that differentiating such is impossible.
However, if we are saved by merely believing in a finished work, even though believing could be considered a work, it is believing in a finished work. The work that saved you is finished. Any idea that justification is not finished, or is “running in the background” of our Christian life must be works salvation.
Therefore, works salvation is defined by the idea that justification is not finished. Admittedly, the question of commitment becomes a difficult question at this point. But, a commitment to do something in the Christian life, in no way finishes the finished work. It is merely a commitment to love Him who first loved us.
Your Dislike of Israel is Satanic: Revelation 12
Revelation 12, Law, Israel, and the Gospel. The video is part 2, and goes further in depth than last week in regard to the relationship of Exodus 19 to the book of Revelation.
Last Week’s Transcript; Part 1:
All right. Tonight we’re going to be looking at Revelation 12, if you want to go ahead and turn there. The big news right now is the conflict between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and per the usual when Israel is in the news like this, the anti-Israel rhetoric is ratcheted up to a great degree. I figured we’d weigh in on this before we continue on our Roman series next week. Our particular interest coincides with our ministry, which is research on Reformed Theology, and there is no lack of discussion to be found when discussing the Reformed view on Israel. The subject of Israel clashes with the Reformed thought in many areas.
First, let me say this. Anti-Israeli sentiment is simply satanic, all right? When it gets right down to it, the Bible in Ephesians 6:12 says that we don’t wrestle against flesh and blood. Primarily, that’s a good thing to remember. But against the rulers, against authorities, against cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil and heavenly places. Save that thought. Hold on to that thought because I really want to apply it to what we’re going to be learning in Revelation 12, okay? This is something that we ought to remember often that humanity is in the middle of cosmic warfare between Satan and God. Our subject today is not at all far off from what we’ve been looking at in regard to predestination and election. The more we learn, the more we suspect that God has predetermined the outcome of this cosmic war as way of election. So what we’ve learned is, learned positively from other places in the word of God, that God elects outcomes, okay? We all want a good ending to the story, right? And he’s elected groups of people to bring about that end. But as we move through time from past history to the future, people have free will to take sides in the warfare, okay? The Bible states that God created hell for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:24 states, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into eternal life prepared for the devil and his angels.'” So notice that when people are judged by God in the end, they are sent to a place that was not prepared for them. I think this is worthy of notation that man did not create hell, or that God did not create hell for men. Well, if God has predetermined some for destruction and some for salvation, why wouldn’t it be prepared for them? Add to that that Christ died for all people, John 3:16 and 2 Peter 2:1, and God is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:3-9. Also, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezekiel 18:32.
One thing we must understand is that the Reformed tradition struggles with the grammatical biblical view of Israel for a couple of reasons. First, this whole Promised Land thing, the geography thing, emphasis on earthly soil does not fit in to the Reformation’s Gnostic view of the visible or the material being evil and the invisible being good. A plot of land also means a literal kingdom on earth for Israel, which throws their whole progressive justification soteriology and the contradiction in confusion, okay? An actual literal plot of land is good for a dispensational view but not a Reformed view of progressive justification. Secondly, and worse yet, Israel as a nation, having salvation ramification completely turns the Reformed applecart upside down. The Reformed crowd likes to make a very distinct separation between Israel as a nation and what they call spiritual Israel.
Before we get into Revelation 12, a word about confused Calvinists. Always remember that Israel is a big problem for the tie that binds. Gnosticism with progressive justification is the application. There will be many variances of the central idea but progressive justification, the idea that salvation isn’t a finished work, or that justification likewise is not a finished work is still the underlying false gospel that drives most denominations in our day, especially those of the Reformed sort. Now I think around 2009, John MacArthur Jr. opened up an annual shepherd’s conference with a controversial message propagating the following. Supersessionism or replacement theology contradicts election. Israel is elect, so the idea that the Church replaced Israel must be a contradiction. The message caused a lot of stir, and MacArthur’s Calvinist friends thought that they had been ambushed at the conference. But the idea that one’s election can be lost is in no wise contradictory to what Calvin taught. So what John MacArthur was teaching is that, hey, you know, we Calvinists, we believe in election. So how can you not be for a dispensational view to some point of the Bible? MacArthur is confused about many aspects of Reformed Theology, and this is one of them. Calvin believed that the called were a class of elect who are temporarily illumined. And I’m not going to cite the citations. I’m worn out from citing the Calvin Institutes on this. The idea that people can lose their election is not inconsistent with Reformed Theology at all.
This Calvinist approach can also be split up into two groups. What some prefer to call immutable justification and mutable justification. The former believe that three groups are predetermined: the non-elect, the temporary elect, and those who persevere. The latter holds to the idea that people can actually determine their final faith if they persevere by remaining faithful to the New Covenant. What does that entail? For all practical purposes, remaining faithful to a local expression of the institutional church–show up, tithe, and make life easy for the elders. This is the Galatian problem all over again because their justification is progressive. They must do the right things to stay justified. But the requirements are a dumbed-down version of the law in the form of traditions of men. And I’ve talked at length about some Calvinists about this, and they say that it’s not keeping the law per se that keeps you safe, it’s being, and this would be the crowd from the mutable justification or changeable justification, the idea that if you’re faithful to the Covenant, i.e. the local church, and that you’re as faithful as you can be, you’re in. That keeps you justified.
The other immutable crowd comes from the position that it’s all predetermined. There’s absolutely nothing you can do except to work out your own salvation with trembling and fear to see if you make it in the end. And you can come to have an assurance of salvation as long as you see yourself being faithful, but you won’t know for certain whether the called temporarily illumined, or those who receive the gift of perseverance and persevere to the end, okay? And this is arguable. I’ve quoted the Calvin Institutes on this constantly. Paul warned the Galatians that if they wanted to be justified by the law, they were accountable for all of it, not the dumbed-down traditions of men versions. Now that’s Galatians 5:3. Paul goes on to say that justification is a finished work wherein there is no law. Law is now a guide for works of love and sanctification. And that’s in Galatians chapter 5:6-7.
So I got away from my main point a little bit in that let’s look at a few things here from Revelation 12. Let’s kind of go through and look at the verses, and let’s focus on the very important point that I want to make in this passage that Israel as a nation is part and parcel with redemption, the redemption plan, okay? The redemption plan that is elected by God. And we had a study on this from the book of Romans where we went into this pretty – people like to make a big dichotomy between national Israel and spiritual Israel. And the Church is now spiritual Israel and the true Jew is really one who is part of the church that has replaced Israel because it fell from its position. The Bible plainly says Israel is elect. How can they say that that was lost? Especially if you read Jeremiah 31 where it’s absolutely clear. Well, again, in Calvinism and the Reformed doctrine in general, there’s a difference between the called and those who have been granted the gift of perseverance. When you’re saved, you’re entered in to the salvation lottery. You’re entered in to the race. And the race is not for rewards. The reward is salvation.
Now let’s look then at Revelation 12:1. “And a great sign appeared in heaven. A woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet and on her head a crowd of 12 stars.” Though this passage uses a lot of symbolism, it is not difficult to interpret. The woman is national Israel, and this passage shows how Israel as a nation cannot be separated spiritually from soteriology. We will see this as we progress. But let me drive the point a little more with Ephesians 2:11-12. So let’s borrow from Ephesians a little bit here in our study. Verse 11, Paul says, “Therefore, remember that at one time, you Gentiles in the flesh,” okay, those once slave to the flesh before they’re saved, “called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision which is made in the flesh by hands,” verse 12, “Remember that you were at that time,” when they were unsaved, “You at that time were separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel.” All right, what’s a commonwealth? We’ve looked at this before in our study of Romans sometime ago. The idea of commonwealth has national connotations to it, and you were strangers to the covenants of promise. And we also looked at covenants being used in the plural there. Why is that? Because all of the covenants in the Old Testament work together to build and culminate on the one final New Covenant in the end.
And I note that in my notes here that we spent a whole lesson on making all these points and the fact that Israel as a nation, Israel’s identity as a nation cannot be separated from God’s salvation plan. And that’s why we love Israel, the nation, and that’s why we look at great interest with what’s going on in Israel today. Well, Israel is a secular nation, and remember, we’re learning more and more that secular is not always necessarily evil. The United States was founded as a secular nation. Obviously, it was a secular nation in regard to the decision that they would stay neutral in religion, that they would focus on freedom of religion but as a government not take sides, okay? So that’s not necessarily evil for a government to say, “We’re going to rule and not take sides in regard to religions.” Well, Paul, then, what’s their standard? Well, first of all, they were ordained by God. And secondly, as we often talk about, all men born into the world have the law of God written on their hearts with their consciences, either accusing or excusing their behavior. All right? We’ve talked about this before. The Nuremberg trials, what law was used? They got to gather these nations and brought these Nazi war criminals up on charges before I guess you would call the World Court because what they did was horribly wrong. Well, says who? From what law book? Why did men all gather together and agree that really along with the rest of the world that this was absolutely horrible behavior? Where has such a law come from? Only one place. Man is created with that intuitive knowledge of good built in, part of the creation.
Okay. So verse 2, “She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains in the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven. Behold a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns. And on its heads, seven diadems.” Go down to verse 4. “His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth, and the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth so that when she bore her child, he might devour it.” Okay, so what’s this a picture of? This is obviously a picture of Christ coming out of Israel, the nation Israel, which gave birth to Christ. This is a woman with, what was it? 12 stars on her head, which is obviously the 12 tribes of Israel, okay? And so the dragon stood before the woman who’s about to give birth so that she bore her children that he might devour it. Well, okay, yes, this could pertain directly to – remember when Herod tried to have Christ murdered by murdering all the infants in Israel, amongst the Jews from two years old down. But I think this speaks generally to the kingdom of darkness trying to destroy Christ.
Verse 5, “She gave birth to the male child, one who is to rule all the nations with an iron rod, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne.” So what we have up until verse 5 is the introduction of national Israel, the fact that the Messiah or the Savior came out of Israel, the fact that the kingdom of darkness, Satan, tried to destroy the Christ who came into the world as a man. And notice that he will rule all of the nations with an iron rod. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. This is literal. This is the millennial kingdom. This is where Christ will rule on David’s throne in Jerusalem for a thousand years, and Israel as a nation will be the head of the world and not the tail. And there’s much, much information about this and the details of the millennial kingdom in the Old Testament. He wasn’t able to destroy Christ. Israel’s child was caught up to God and to his throne. That of course is the resurrection. Okay. “And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.”
So basically, what we have in chapter 12 is a thumbnail of all redemptive history up to the tribulation period is what we have, and really beyond with the mentioning of the millennial kingdom where Christ will rule the nations with an iron rod. Now we all look forward to heaven for many things, but this is one reason we look forward to redemption. As we study the Bible, it’s not heaven per se, I suppose. We’ll be given assignments and work to do, and I guess that will be in heaven and in the millennial kingdom. But we know that at the end of the millennial kingdom and after the white throne judgment that there is a new heaven and a new earth, and heavenly Jerusalem comes down from heaven, and that’s where God tabernacles with man on earth. Again, this kind of upsets the Gnostic applecart big time, right? You’ve got the invisible coming and dwelling with the physical. You have God coming down from heaven and dwelling with man, which of course the Exodus and everything with the tabernacle with Israel was what God wanted then, right? So basically, that finally comes about. The tabernacle represented God’s desire to dwell on earth with men.
So let’s say instead of talking about going to heaven, let’s talk about redemption. One of the things that we will look forward to enjoying is in the millennial kingdom, there will be justice, okay? This is the point here. Christ will rule from David’s throne in Jerusalem with an iron rod or a rod of iron, and things are going to be done right. There’s going to be justice. There’s going to be fairness, okay? We’re going to be able to look at that and see that happen as set against the injustice that we have to live with all the time in this world. Things are going to be done right, and that’s going to be a glory. Also, another thing that will be glorious as set against what we’re used to, and I look forward to this, Israel will no longer be the ugly stepchild of the world that everybody beats on. They’re going to be the head, the Old Testament said, they’re going to be the head of the nations and not the tail. And all of this frustrating persecution and horrible treatment and anti-semitism that we see against Israel, we’re going to be able to set that against the extreme opposite being true in the millennial kingdom. For me, that’s something to look forward to. And when I see this incessant anti-semitism that we experience in our culture and in history, I’m always encouraged and I always think, even though it makes me angry and frustrates me, the thought that comes to mind is, “The day is coming. The day is coming when all of that is going to be made right.”
Now verse 6, “And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared by God in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.” So what Revelation 12 does here is we have the creation of Israel as a nation; we have the fact that the Messiah comes out of that nation, the fact that Satan tries to devour that child, then we have in verse 5 him going back to God and his throne. So this is up to the resurrection, and you can throw the birth of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel in there. Now we’re jumping in to verse 6 which is definitely during the tribulation period, the seven-year tribulation period. Now look, this is the only place 1,260 days fits into anything. That’s what? Three and a half years, right? Okay. There’s no place else in all of scripture to put these 1,260 days. There’s only one place these days can go, and that is the seven-year tribulation period.
What we see here is that there’s a persecution of the woman in these days, and somehow Israel is protected for that many days from being wiped out. I don’t know what happens. One day we will study the book of Revelation. For now, suffice it to say, Israel as a people is protected as a people for these many days. Now a war arose in heaven. Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fight back. This is interesting. Eight, “And he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.” Now we know up until this time from other scriptures, especially in the book of Job, that Satan and his demons have access to heaven and apparently even go there and dialogue with God. I think Satan is also called the Accuser of the Brethren, and what the Hebrew writer talks about in regard to Christ being our advocate, I think this is where Christ is our advocate in heaven. Now the Reformed crowd teaches that he’s an advocate for a continued imputing of his righteousness to us to keep us justified, but I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think Christ is our advocate in sanctification because even though we’re sanctified and our justification is a done deal, we’re continually accused in heaven by the accuser of the what? The brethren.
So verse 9, “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent who’s called the devil and Satan and the deceiver of the whole world.” I find this interesting too. The concept all through the Bible as Satan being a deceiver of the world. I just find that interesting in that this is in the mix – how should I say? If our eternal faith is predetermined, why have the kingdom of darkness being capable of deception? Why is that even in the mix? And if we’re so totally depraved, if mankind is in general totally depraved, why do we need a deceiver? So just a thought. I’m not saying that’s a big deal but just something to think about. Anyway, he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Now this is undoubtedly in the middle of the tribulation period. During this time when Israel is protected somehow, whether supernaturally or God used his other nations to protect Israel, I don’t know. I know this for a fact. The book of Revelation is going to read like the daily newspapers during that time. In the book of Daniel, we find that during this time knowledge will increase, we read in the book of Daniel. I think what will increase is the book of Revelation is what’s going to increase. That’s the knowledge that’s going to increase. This is where all heck breaks out on earth. We have the seven-year tribulation period, and I think when Satan is cast out of heaven, I think this is where we have the great tribulation, which is the last three and a half years.
Verse 10, “And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying now salvation and the power of the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before God.” So again, this is where I believe the Hebrew writer talks about Christ being our advocate. I think this is what’s going on.
Verse 11, “And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony for they love not their lives even unto death.” Hold the fort. Wow. What translation do you have?
Susan: King James.
Okay. I believe what I have is the ESV, and I believe we’re missing something. Wow. Okay. It’s going to be in verse 6, okay? “And the woman fled into the wilderness where she has a place prepared for God and where she was nourished for 1,260 days.” Is there any more to that verse?
Susan: No. And it’s “prepared by God,” not “prepared for God.”
Okay. Somewhere in there, I’m not finding it, when there’s a – he puts out a flood to try to destroy the woman. But anyway, when he can’t destroy the woman, he wages war against her offspring.
Susan: That’s in verse 15, 13, 14, and 15.
Oh, okay. We’re not there yet. Okay. So anyway, “And they conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell on them, but woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath because he knows that his time is short.” So the heavens will rejoice that he’s finally been cast out, but woe unto the earth because this is when this great wrath comes.
All right, 13. “When the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.” Now who is that?
Susan: Israel.
That’s Israel, the Jews. Verse 14, “But the woman was given the two wings of a great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness to a place where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time,” and again, that’s the three and a half years. So you can kind of coincide this with what Christ said in Matthew 24, I believe, when he said, “When you see the abomination of,” or the…
Susan: Abomination of desolation.
Yeah, abomination of decimation [SOUNDS LIKE] or whatever it was, where Satan goes into the temple and sits there and proclaims himself, he says, “Flee.” He says, “Don’t even go back to the house to get anything. Flee.” So apparently, this happens suddenly. And I don’t know what all happens there, but wherever they flee to or whatever they do, they’re protected for these three and a half years. “So the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman.” And I believe people during that time are going to be able to read in the book of Revelation and know exactly what that’s talking about. I don’t know what that symbolizes, but they’re going to know then what it symbolizes. “So the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with a flood. But the earth came to help the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from its mouth.” Again, we don’t know what that’s going to symbolize. It may be some kind of supernatural event or it may be something else.
Verse 17, “Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring on those who keep the commandment of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.” And what I think that is referring to, the dragon can’t destroy Israel, so then he goes after her offspring. Who do I think that is? I think that’s the Gentiles, okay?
Susan: The believing Gentiles.
The believing Gentiles who are alive during the tribulation period. He can’t destroy Israel. Somehow Israel is protected for three and a half years. Satan knows his time is short. He can read the Bible too and know what’s going to happen. So basically, here is where you, I believe, get this great slaughter and persecution of Christians during the tribulation period. Apparently, that’s going to be mostly Gentiles. I do believe the offspring spoken of here is the Gentiles because they came out of Israel. Again, I want to make the point here that Israel as a nation is very relevant to God’s redemptive plan, and we got to keep that in mind. Any questions or comments?
Susan: It’s obvious from what is written in Revelation that this is a national Israel and not a spiritual Israel that we’re talking about here.
Right. And that’s my point. I think we make a big mistake in scripture when we try to make this huge dichotomy between spiritual Israel, whatever that is, and national Israel. And that’s why as Christians, we don’t look at Israel as just a “sliver of geography” that people use to eclipse the glory of Christ. And do you know how many Reformed people have said this to me and the dispensational people in general that you’re accused of making a plot of land more relevant than Christ himself, you know? So again, there’s this dichotomy. When it gets right down to the nitty-gritty, their real problem is that we’re talking about material land. And if it’s material land, it can’t have relevance because it’s evil, because it’s material. So yeah…
Susan: Nowhere in the scripture was the material land promised to Abraham given then to David ever described as being evil. It was Promised Land, a land of covenant, a land of promise, a land of hope. Now did evil happen there? Yes. There were evil rulers, et cetera. We all know the history of the nation of Israel. But all throughout scripture, there’s always that connotation that it is a land significant to God, not evil, significant, blessed and important to God for redemptive purposes and for his elect. And how much more we as believing Christians need to bless the land of Israel?
Right. Absolutely. So any other comments? All right, well, we’ll wrap that up for tonight, and hopefully that will be useful for some folks.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
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