Paul – a little off the precise subject here, but more stone throwing is currently going on in the Kirk Cameron dispute.
Now I don’t happen to agree with him on his annihilation view of hell, but I think he has every right to question the ‘tradtional’ interpretation. The eternal torment concept is difficult to square with a God who is love. I well understand anyone reacting against the torture chamber model of hell.
My question to you regards the reaction to Cameron from the mainstream evangelical community. I have rarely seen such snark and party spirit, and displays of ignorance from those who clearly have never given this issue much thought. This appears to come mainly from Calvinists, and they are reacting like robots.
The reaction is as though their faith is being threatened. If eternal punishment (clearly biblical) doesn’t involve eternal conscious torment (the point being disputed) then you might as well give up the faith. Do you have any idea what the underlying problem is? Is this revealing some psychological deficit? I quite genuinely don’t get it.
Sorry for the belated posting of you comment Ken. Yea, the hell thing. It’s been in the batter’s box of my mind lately. So, I heard something about Cameron and and it is on my list to look into it. If you remember, Rob Bell came out with a challenge against the traditional view of hell and he immediately suffered the wrath of mainline Protestants. What you cite above is very reminiscent of the Rob Bell response. I will say this: I am very suspicious of the traditional view of hell because it is the ultimate fear tool to control people. Furthermore, what exactly would be the point of eternal torment? So, let’s talk about the utter complexity of biblical doctrine as set against the stakes? Look, what? 200 different denominations and all of them saying that if you don’t agree with them you are going to spend eternity in hell? Pretty sketchy. We should all probably listen to what Rob Bell and Cameron have to say and weigh it against other information. And regarding something you said above, right, the people who are most exercised about this have been wrong about the gospel itself for over 500 years and are wrong about what the wrong gospel actually teaches (wrong X2). I am preparing to write TTANC volume 2…maybe a chapter in there about the hell controversy.
Hi Paul again, I appreciate you unlike me still have to earn your crust and don’t have unlimited time!
I think you should consider writing something on the sombre subject of hell. I even have a couple of contributions towards it.
John Stott wrote “I want to repudiate with all the vehemence of which I am capable the glibness, what almost appears to be the glee, the Schadenfreunde, with which some Evangelicals speak about hell. It is a horrible sickness of mind or spirit…Well, emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterising their feelings or cracking under the strain.” (Quoted by Steve Hays at Triablogue)
I fully concur with Stott’s sentiments here, especially after reading often Calvinist commenters on this subject. One noteworthy one that appears in the letters on Doug Wilson’s blog for 16th December 2025 from Jack reads as follows:
“You answered a letter writer’s question on the nature of Hell saying that you believed that it is “eternal conscious torment for the damned.” I agree with you. As a Catholic boy in the 1950’s, I got a good dose of Hell Fear in my 12 years of Catholic school education, so I have often turned the concept over in my mind. My latest vision is that God doesn’t need to do anything further to make the damned miserable after judgment. Imaging being restored to a physical body, now immortal, and present in timeless eternity: no light, no sound, nothing to eat or drink, no air to breathe, no gravity but endless weightless falling; no one to talk to or curse; you’re all alone with your evil, an evil that you have finally been made fully aware of at your judgment. As Kurtz said in “Heart of Darkness”, THE HORROR, THE HORROR. And then God casts you into the Lake of Fire. It has occurred to me that this may be God’s final mercy to the damned; a terrible burning pain that somewhat distracts the attention from the horrible realization of personal, continual, progressive corruption. Jonathan Edwards in one of his sermons expounds on the crushing collapse of damnation upon the soul. I have thought of this collapse as related to the half-life of radioactivity: a continual reduction of matter, ever smaller and smaller, yet never arriving at total annihilation.”
To add insult to injury Jack ended his comment with “How great the mercy of the Father in Jesus Christ!” That’s a bit like Calvin’s idea of mercy when Servetus was being judicially murdered that he ought to be killed quickly rather than slowly in agony.
This certainly fits Stott’s critique. Incidentally I read Stott on hell decades ago and far from being apostate he was thoughtful and nuanced, and said scripture must be the final authority on this and not feelings. He said there are problems biblically with both views of hell. I have quoted Stott several times, but the ‘torment’ brigade studiously ignore it!
I also quoted most of the above letter to a pastor who criticised me for being critical of the attitude so many evangelicals have towards hell, saying I was slanderous and ad hominum. I got no reply regarding the above quotation!
One girl wrote ‘Will not the Judge of all the earth do right, can’t we simply leave it up to him’? This garnered the response ‘Patsy is a good example of why Paul told women to shut up’.
I even agreed with James White (!) on this when he said too many are commenting on a subject to which they have given too little thought, who don’t appreciate the arguments for both sides.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Paul – a little off the precise subject here, but more stone throwing is currently going on in the Kirk Cameron dispute.
Now I don’t happen to agree with him on his annihilation view of hell, but I think he has every right to question the ‘tradtional’ interpretation. The eternal torment concept is difficult to square with a God who is love. I well understand anyone reacting against the torture chamber model of hell.
My question to you regards the reaction to Cameron from the mainstream evangelical community. I have rarely seen such snark and party spirit, and displays of ignorance from those who clearly have never given this issue much thought. This appears to come mainly from Calvinists, and they are reacting like robots.
The reaction is as though their faith is being threatened. If eternal punishment (clearly biblical) doesn’t involve eternal conscious torment (the point being disputed) then you might as well give up the faith. Do you have any idea what the underlying problem is? Is this revealing some psychological deficit? I quite genuinely don’t get it.
Ken B
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Sorry for the belated posting of you comment Ken. Yea, the hell thing. It’s been in the batter’s box of my mind lately. So, I heard something about Cameron and and it is on my list to look into it. If you remember, Rob Bell came out with a challenge against the traditional view of hell and he immediately suffered the wrath of mainline Protestants. What you cite above is very reminiscent of the Rob Bell response. I will say this: I am very suspicious of the traditional view of hell because it is the ultimate fear tool to control people. Furthermore, what exactly would be the point of eternal torment? So, let’s talk about the utter complexity of biblical doctrine as set against the stakes? Look, what? 200 different denominations and all of them saying that if you don’t agree with them you are going to spend eternity in hell? Pretty sketchy. We should all probably listen to what Rob Bell and Cameron have to say and weigh it against other information. And regarding something you said above, right, the people who are most exercised about this have been wrong about the gospel itself for over 500 years and are wrong about what the wrong gospel actually teaches (wrong X2). I am preparing to write TTANC volume 2…maybe a chapter in there about the hell controversy.
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Hi Paul again, I appreciate you unlike me still have to earn your crust and don’t have unlimited time!
I think you should consider writing something on the sombre subject of hell. I even have a couple of contributions towards it.
John Stott wrote “I want to repudiate with all the vehemence of which I am capable the glibness, what almost appears to be the glee, the Schadenfreunde, with which some Evangelicals speak about hell. It is a horrible sickness of mind or spirit…Well, emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterising their feelings or cracking under the strain.” (Quoted by Steve Hays at Triablogue)
I fully concur with Stott’s sentiments here, especially after reading often Calvinist commenters on this subject. One noteworthy one that appears in the letters on Doug Wilson’s blog for 16th December 2025 from Jack reads as follows:
“You answered a letter writer’s question on the nature of Hell saying that you believed that it is “eternal conscious torment for the damned.” I agree with you. As a Catholic boy in the 1950’s, I got a good dose of Hell Fear in my 12 years of Catholic school education, so I have often turned the concept over in my mind. My latest vision is that God doesn’t need to do anything further to make the damned miserable after judgment. Imaging being restored to a physical body, now immortal, and present in timeless eternity: no light, no sound, nothing to eat or drink, no air to breathe, no gravity but endless weightless falling; no one to talk to or curse; you’re all alone with your evil, an evil that you have finally been made fully aware of at your judgment. As Kurtz said in “Heart of Darkness”, THE HORROR, THE HORROR. And then God casts you into the Lake of Fire. It has occurred to me that this may be God’s final mercy to the damned; a terrible burning pain that somewhat distracts the attention from the horrible realization of personal, continual, progressive corruption. Jonathan Edwards in one of his sermons expounds on the crushing collapse of damnation upon the soul. I have thought of this collapse as related to the half-life of radioactivity: a continual reduction of matter, ever smaller and smaller, yet never arriving at total annihilation.”
To add insult to injury Jack ended his comment with “How great the mercy of the Father in Jesus Christ!” That’s a bit like Calvin’s idea of mercy when Servetus was being judicially murdered that he ought to be killed quickly rather than slowly in agony.
This certainly fits Stott’s critique. Incidentally I read Stott on hell decades ago and far from being apostate he was thoughtful and nuanced, and said scripture must be the final authority on this and not feelings. He said there are problems biblically with both views of hell. I have quoted Stott several times, but the ‘torment’ brigade studiously ignore it!
I also quoted most of the above letter to a pastor who criticised me for being critical of the attitude so many evangelicals have towards hell, saying I was slanderous and ad hominum. I got no reply regarding the above quotation!
One girl wrote ‘Will not the Judge of all the earth do right, can’t we simply leave it up to him’? This garnered the response ‘Patsy is a good example of why Paul told women to shut up’.
I even agreed with James White (!) on this when he said too many are commenting on a subject to which they have given too little thought, who don’t appreciate the arguments for both sides.
Ken B – sorry for the length!
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We have tossed around the idea of having one of our conferences on hell.
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