Why should we expect anything other than heavy-handed guilt manipulation applied to women from John Piper. If a woman leaves Redeemer Bible Church, she is turning away from God. The men are allowed to be a Boaz. The rich insights to be gleaned from Piper’s sermons are spiritually vacuous.
Who in blazes is he preaching to . . . Glenn’s wife? Is he making clear what she should and shouldn’t do? Why not speak to the adulterer? This is not what the wife needs heaped on her soul.
Bridget,
R.W. Glenn is a hard-lined patriarch. In a sermon series he did on marriage ( still available on the Redeemer website)..”Wives, if your husband asks you to do anything, and it’s not a sin to do it, then to refuse is a sin.”
That sounds exactly like John Piper in his video response to the question of should a wife submit to abuse.
Pearl, the attempt at deception SHOULD be DOA, but I guarantee you it is not. When the Pope shows up at your church to insure you don’t leave and lays a heavy guilt trip on you (“…this will separate the Ruth’s from the Orpah’s”)…you darn well get the message. I’ve already seen their people post on how they have to stick together because they’re “being attacked.” Piper is a walking billboard for spiritual abuse.
My husband worked at Redeemer for a bit. One night, we were invited to dinner at one of the Pastor’s homes. Upon arriving the pastor and wife brought out a list that the wife had been instructed to create. It was a list of all the “concerns” she had developed about me over our few months there. The purpose of the dinner was to discuss this list of all my flaws. Hitting the top of the list was that I asked for and expected my husband to help me with the children in the morning. This was apparently taking him away from his “true calling” which was the work of ministry. True story.
Thanks. And I don’t remember much of the dinner. I’m sure it was tasty. They were always good hosts. After reading more on this blog, it really has been mind blowing. I never realized there was a whole movement supporting what they were doing. I have been reading a ton about New Calvinism and it is like a play by play of what we experienced. So it isn’t just the Piperettes and the Redeemerites (those were our names for those we knew that followed the theology). Fascinating. I honestly had no idea. I am simultaneously relieved (to know it wasn’t just our opinions and impressions) and horrified (that many others beyond these two churches are likely experiencing the same thing). Thanks for the eye-opening information!
paulspassingthoughts said, on October 8, 2014 at 9:14 PM
I needed to hear that we are doing some good here, just learned that a former mentor of mine is now a full-blown Kool Aid drinker in the movement. very disheartening.
Wow, you people are missing Piper’s point. He’s not advocating staying at the church necessarily, but staying with God. And while abuse does (obviously) happen in the name of some of the theology preached by Piper and Glenn, you have to be fair in saying that the best of that movement would hate the abuse itself. And the best of this theology that I have seen in practive has not led to abuse.
paulspassingthoughts said, on December 17, 2014 at 6:10 PM
Brooks,
I am not missing Piper’s point at all. With Piper, and according to Protestant soteriology, you CANNOT leave the church and stay with God. Salvation comes by being faithful to the institution where absolution for present sin is found. That’s Luther–that’s Calvin–that’s heresy. It doesn’t matter what happens in the institutional church, that’s where salvation is obtained.
paulspassingthoughts said, on December 18, 2014 at 7:27 AM
From chapter 1 of “Against Church; A Return to True Christianity” January 2015:
Like a city of refuge, the institutional church supplies protection from God’s condemnation. “Christian” is not defined by a change in personhood from condemned to uncondemned, it is only defined by those who find refuge from God’s wrath within His appointed institution of refuge—the church. Supposedly, this is because sins committed by Christians disqualify them from being justified in God’s sight:
…by new sins we continually separate ourselves, as far as we can, from the grace of God…Thus it is, that all the saints have need of the daily forgiveness of sins; for this alone keeps us in the family of God (John Calvin: Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles; The Calvin Translation Society 1855. Editor: John Owen, p. 165 ¶4).
And where is the only place that Christians can receive this “daily forgiveness” of sins?
To impart this blessing to us, the keys have been given to the Church (Mt. 16:19; 18:18). For when Christ gave the command to the apostles, and conferred the power of forgiving sins, he not merely intended that they should loose the sins of those who should be converted from impiety to the faith of Christ; but, moreover, that they should perpetually perform this office among believers (The Calvin Institutes: 4.1.22).
Secondly, This benefit is so peculiar to the Church, that we cannot enjoy it unless we continue in the communion of the Church. Thirdly, It is dispensed to us by the ministers and pastors of the Church, either in the preaching of the Gospel or the administration of the Sacraments, and herein is especially manifested the power of the keys, which the Lord has bestowed on the company of the faithful. Accordingly, let each of us consider it to be his duty to seek forgiveness of sins only where the Lord has placed it. Of the public reconciliation which relates to discipline, we shall speak at the proper place (Ibid).
Hence, “believers” still need to receive forgiveness “daily” in order to “keep(s) us in the family of God,” and that forgiveness can only be found in “the church.” Likewise, Martin Luther held to the exact same ecclesiastical position:
…forgiveness of sins is not a matter of a passing work or action, but comes from baptism which is of perpetual duration, until we arise from the dead” (Luther’s Works: American ed.; Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press; St. Louis: Concordia, 1955, vol. 34, p. 163).
. . . Forgiveness of sins is not a matter of a passing work or action, but of perpetual duration. For the forgiveness of sins begins in baptism and remains with us all the way to death, until we arise from the dead, and leads us into life eternal. So we live continually under the remission of sins. Christ is truly and constantly the liberator from our sins, is called our Savior, and saves us by taking away our sins. If, however, he saves us always and continually, then we are constantly sinners” (Ibid, p.164).
On no condition is sin a passing phase, but we are justified daily by the unmerited forgiveness of sins and by the justification of God’s mercy. Sin remains, then, perpetually in this life, until the hour of the last judgment comes and then at last we shall be made perfectly righteous (Ibid, p.167).
For the forgiveness of sins is a continuing divine work, until we die. Sin does not cease. Accordingly, Christ saves us perpetually (Ibid., p.190).
Daily we sin, daily we are continually justified, just as a doctor is forced to heal sickness day by day until it is cured (Ibid., p.191).
In other words, according to Luther, daily justification.
I just want to say that my family started Redeember Bibile church in 1968. And several months have gone by since Bob’s failings have been put out for everyone to have an opinion about! I love my church and family and it is hard to read posts from people who didn’t go to RBC or knew the people involved. All I personally can tell you is that I grew up in that church and was adopted by a family in RBC in 1980 as an 11 year old girl. Who was blessed by God to have been brought to RBC and lived with the the first pastor of RBC (then we were called Maranatha Bibile Church). They buried my birth mother with me and took care of the orphan. My experience with RBC has been the gospel lived out! I love Bob and his family they are MY family.
paulspassingthoughts said, on January 25, 2015 at 11:22 PM
Sarah,
Thanks for sharing, but the point of the post is John Piper’s assertion that anyone who leaves because of what happened isn’t sold out for Christ. And funny, Piper didn’t go there either but its perfectly ok for him to judge those who might leave? Sarah, your lack of discernment is stunning.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Why should we expect anything other than heavy-handed guilt manipulation applied to women from John Piper. If a woman leaves Redeemer Bible Church, she is turning away from God. The men are allowed to be a Boaz. The rich insights to be gleaned from Piper’s sermons are spiritually vacuous.
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Who in blazes is he preaching to . . . Glenn’s wife? Is he making clear what she should and shouldn’t do? Why not speak to the adulterer? This is not what the wife needs heaped on her soul.
LikeLike
Unbelievable. What are these people thinking?
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Bridget,
R.W. Glenn is a hard-lined patriarch. In a sermon series he did on marriage ( still available on the Redeemer website)..”Wives, if your husband asks you to do anything, and it’s not a sin to do it, then to refuse is a sin.”
That sounds exactly like John Piper in his video response to the question of should a wife submit to abuse.
LikeLike
Pearl, the attempt at deception SHOULD be DOA, but I guarantee you it is not. When the Pope shows up at your church to insure you don’t leave and lays a heavy guilt trip on you (“…this will separate the Ruth’s from the Orpah’s”)…you darn well get the message. I’ve already seen their people post on how they have to stick together because they’re “being attacked.” Piper is a walking billboard for spiritual abuse.
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These are two great observations.
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These are two great observations.
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My husband worked at Redeemer for a bit. One night, we were invited to dinner at one of the Pastor’s homes. Upon arriving the pastor and wife brought out a list that the wife had been instructed to create. It was a list of all the “concerns” she had developed about me over our few months there. The purpose of the dinner was to discuss this list of all my flaws. Hitting the top of the list was that I asked for and expected my husband to help me with the children in the morning. This was apparently taking him away from his “true calling” which was the work of ministry. True story.
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Typical New Calvinist ambush. Was the dinner at least good? Stopped by your blog, well done in my opinion.
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…and btw, you have a beautiful family.
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Thanks. And I don’t remember much of the dinner. I’m sure it was tasty. They were always good hosts. After reading more on this blog, it really has been mind blowing. I never realized there was a whole movement supporting what they were doing. I have been reading a ton about New Calvinism and it is like a play by play of what we experienced. So it isn’t just the Piperettes and the Redeemerites (those were our names for those we knew that followed the theology). Fascinating. I honestly had no idea. I am simultaneously relieved (to know it wasn’t just our opinions and impressions) and horrified (that many others beyond these two churches are likely experiencing the same thing). Thanks for the eye-opening information!
LikeLike
I needed to hear that we are doing some good here, just learned that a former mentor of mine is now a full-blown Kool Aid drinker in the movement. very disheartening.
LikeLike
Wow, you people are missing Piper’s point. He’s not advocating staying at the church necessarily, but staying with God. And while abuse does (obviously) happen in the name of some of the theology preached by Piper and Glenn, you have to be fair in saying that the best of that movement would hate the abuse itself. And the best of this theology that I have seen in practive has not led to abuse.
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Brooks,
I am not missing Piper’s point at all. With Piper, and according to Protestant soteriology, you CANNOT leave the church and stay with God. Salvation comes by being faithful to the institution where absolution for present sin is found. That’s Luther–that’s Calvin–that’s heresy. It doesn’t matter what happens in the institutional church, that’s where salvation is obtained.
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Can you please show us where Luther, Calvin, Piper or Glen teach that salvation comes by being faithful to an institution?
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From chapter 1 of “Against Church; A Return to True Christianity” January 2015:
Like a city of refuge, the institutional church supplies protection from God’s condemnation. “Christian” is not defined by a change in personhood from condemned to uncondemned, it is only defined by those who find refuge from God’s wrath within His appointed institution of refuge—the church. Supposedly, this is because sins committed by Christians disqualify them from being justified in God’s sight:
…by new sins we continually separate ourselves, as far as we can, from the grace of God…Thus it is, that all the saints have need of the daily forgiveness of sins; for this alone keeps us in the family of God (John Calvin: Commentaries on the Catholic Epistles; The Calvin Translation Society 1855. Editor: John Owen, p. 165 ¶4).
And where is the only place that Christians can receive this “daily forgiveness” of sins?
To impart this blessing to us, the keys have been given to the Church (Mt. 16:19; 18:18). For when Christ gave the command to the apostles, and conferred the power of forgiving sins, he not merely intended that they should loose the sins of those who should be converted from impiety to the faith of Christ; but, moreover, that they should perpetually perform this office among believers (The Calvin Institutes: 4.1.22).
Secondly, This benefit is so peculiar to the Church, that we cannot enjoy it unless we continue in the communion of the Church. Thirdly, It is dispensed to us by the ministers and pastors of the Church, either in the preaching of the Gospel or the administration of the Sacraments, and herein is especially manifested the power of the keys, which the Lord has bestowed on the company of the faithful. Accordingly, let each of us consider it to be his duty to seek forgiveness of sins only where the Lord has placed it. Of the public reconciliation which relates to discipline, we shall speak at the proper place (Ibid).
Hence, “believers” still need to receive forgiveness “daily” in order to “keep(s) us in the family of God,” and that forgiveness can only be found in “the church.” Likewise, Martin Luther held to the exact same ecclesiastical position:
…forgiveness of sins is not a matter of a passing work or action, but comes from baptism which is of perpetual duration, until we arise from the dead” (Luther’s Works: American ed.; Philadelphia: Muhlenberg Press; St. Louis: Concordia, 1955, vol. 34, p. 163).
. . . Forgiveness of sins is not a matter of a passing work or action, but of perpetual duration. For the forgiveness of sins begins in baptism and remains with us all the way to death, until we arise from the dead, and leads us into life eternal. So we live continually under the remission of sins. Christ is truly and constantly the liberator from our sins, is called our Savior, and saves us by taking away our sins. If, however, he saves us always and continually, then we are constantly sinners” (Ibid, p.164).
On no condition is sin a passing phase, but we are justified daily by the unmerited forgiveness of sins and by the justification of God’s mercy. Sin remains, then, perpetually in this life, until the hour of the last judgment comes and then at last we shall be made perfectly righteous (Ibid, p.167).
For the forgiveness of sins is a continuing divine work, until we die. Sin does not cease. Accordingly, Christ saves us perpetually (Ibid., p.190).
Daily we sin, daily we are continually justified, just as a doctor is forced to heal sickness day by day until it is cured (Ibid., p.191).
In other words, according to Luther, daily justification.
LikeLike
I just want to say that my family started Redeember Bibile church in 1968. And several months have gone by since Bob’s failings have been put out for everyone to have an opinion about! I love my church and family and it is hard to read posts from people who didn’t go to RBC or knew the people involved. All I personally can tell you is that I grew up in that church and was adopted by a family in RBC in 1980 as an 11 year old girl. Who was blessed by God to have been brought to RBC and lived with the the first pastor of RBC (then we were called Maranatha Bibile Church). They buried my birth mother with me and took care of the orphan. My experience with RBC has been the gospel lived out! I love Bob and his family they are MY family.
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Sarah,
Thanks for sharing, but the point of the post is John Piper’s assertion that anyone who leaves because of what happened isn’t sold out for Christ. And funny, Piper didn’t go there either but its perfectly ok for him to judge those who might leave? Sarah, your lack of discernment is stunning.
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