Paul's Passing Thoughts

The Potter’s House: 3/17/2013; Romans 9:6ff. The Assurance of God’s Election and the Hope of Whosoever Will, Part 2

Posted in Uncategorized by Paul M. Dohse Sr. on March 23, 2013

Potters h. 2Last week we looked at the fact that Israel is a chosen nation by God and for His purposes. We looked at the fact that history culminates with God enforcing His Mt. Sinai covenant with Israel through the administration of angels. For the most part, that is what the book of Revelation is about. We also looked at the fact that this chapter is about God’s election.

Because Israel was elected, the covenant will stand because covenants based on election are executed by God and not man. Man participates, but ultimately, God insures the results. This is the case for national Israel regardless of the fact that Israel rebelled against God. This is because election doesn’t depend on anything we do or don’t do. Once elected always elected. Once saved always saved, and Israel will be saved. But why not all of them?

Romans 9:6-13 – 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

The subject of election is very mysterious and controversial. We must approach this subject with trust in God, and obedience to His truth. As always, we must operate as Christians by what we objectively know to be true in the Scriptures. The Bible is applicable; we apply what we understand to be definitively true and pray for wisdom in the rest as we continue to study for showing ourselves approved. The Bible is to be applied—not figured out in a way that forms doctrine by logical conclusion. Election is an application, not a philosophy. Logical conclusions drawn from election are tantamount to figuring out the Trinity. Any conclusions concerning election that circumvent the hope of whosoever will are erroneous.

Starting in verse 6, we understand that Israel’s failure has absolutely nothing to do with the trustworthiness of God’s word. Likewise, the present condition of the church has absolutely nothing to do with the trustworthiness of God’s word. My caution to spiritual abuse discernment bloggers is that their ministry does not cast a doubtful mist on God’s covenant to ultimately tabernacle with man. We must expose evil, but we must also propagate the full counsel of God. Curiously, Paul, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is pleased to explain why it appears that God’s plan and purposes through election were derailed by Israel’s rebellion. The answer?  More election. Specific election within the election. If you will, general election and specific election:

8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring….13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

It’s interesting how Paul frames this. He states that within Israel there are children of the promise and children of the flesh. This goes back to what we have already studied in Romans—those under the law and those under grace. Paul uses an oxymoron by writing that all decedents of Israel are descendants of Abraham, but all are not his offspring. So, there are two categories: descendants of Israel and Abraham’s offspring. Both are the same, but different. Abraham has two kinds of descendants: flesh and promise. The “promise” pertains to the original covenant with Abraham which is the foundation for all the other covenants of promise. Promise and covenant go hand in hand:

Ephesians 2:12 – remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Covenants of what? And how many are there? More than one, no? And at the time of Paul’s writing, how many of the covenants were the unsaved alienated from? That is why we here at the Potter’s House insist that commandments five through nine in Exodus 20 are a specific covenant between God and children. The fifth is a commandment with a promise marking it as a covenant. The following four are short pithy statements that refer back to five. Their abruptness set them apart from the rest of the commandments which have a commentary attached. Children dishonor their parents by violating those commandments. A missionary once told me that all of his counseling with teenagers focuses on their relationship with parents. We would be wise to follow his example.

So, when we speak of promise—think “covenant.” Promise and covenant go hand in hand. And as we shall also see, we are going to want to closely associate called and election  as well. And remember that the Abrahamic covenant is the foundation of all of the other covenants, and represents God’s ultimate goal to tabernacle with man. Furthermore, know that circumcision is the ritual that is specifically identified with the Abrahamic covenant. Circumcision must be interpreted and viewed through that covenant specifically:

Genesis 17:9 – And God said to Abraham, “As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Again, as we discussed in the Exodus interlude of this series, the harshness of God regarding the following of these covenant symbols speaks to the laxness and alteration of the truth that brings eternal life. The tabernacle represented God’s desire to tabernacle with man and the only specific way that could accrue. Hence, rearranging the tabernacle would have brought certain death. To rearrange the tabernacle is to suggest that the way of salvation is negotiable, and God is open to manmade alternatives. When it comes to truth that truly heals—God is not tolerant. We have this same idea with circumcision. Christ warns in the book of Revelation to not add to or take away from God’s word. If you do, the plagues of Revelation will be added to you. Why? Because it’s rearranging the tabernacle. To the contrary, in the beginning of Revelation, blessings are promised to those who read and believe the prophecy.

Furthermore, part and parcel with the Abrahamic covenant was the intention to bring the Gentiles into the covenant:

Genesis 17: 4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations…. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13 both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised (Id v.12).

What we want to focus on is the assurance of the promise through calling and election. Since Paul brought up the Abrahamic offspring to make his point, that is exactly where we are going. We are going to start at the beginning:

Genesis 15:1 – After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” 2 But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” 3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Stop right there. That’s salvation right there. Believing God. This is salvation reduced to its most common denominator: faith. Believing God. There are a lot of things that God is going to add to this covenant, particularly the gospel of first importance, but salvific faith is a state of being. If you believe God, it follows that you will believe everything else that God wants you to believe. Saving faith….listen, saving faith doesn’t pick and choose what part of God’s truth will be accepted. We saw this earlier in Romans, salvific faith embraces the full counsel of God. Abraham believed God on this one point, and in the modern vernacular—“nuff said” he is the father of all of those who believe God. And perhaps most importantly, note the following:

Galatians 3:15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Salvation is completely separate from the law. The book of the covenant given on Mt. Sinai, which was the foundation for much of the closed canon of Scripture, came 430 years after the promise. Do you understand that this drives a spear right through the heart of Calvinism? Calvin believed that the definition of righteousness was a perfect keeping of the law:

But in order that a sense of guilt may urge us [Christians] to seek for pardon, it is of importance to know how our being instructed in the Moral Law renders us more inexcusable [aside: the need for perpetual pardon]. If it is true, that a perfect righteousness is set before us in the Law, it follows, that the complete observance of it is perfect righteousness in the sight of God; that is, a righteousness by which a man may be deemed and *pronounced righteous at the divine tribunal. Wherefore Moses, after promulgating the Law, hesitates not to call heaven and earth to witness, that he had set life and death, good and evil, before the people. Nor can it be denied, that the reward of eternal salvation, as promised by the Lord, awaits the perfect obedience of the Law…(CI 2.7.3).

Therefore, if we look merely to the Law, the result must be despondency, confusion, and despair, seeing that by it we are all cursed and condemned, while we are kept far away from the blessedness which it holds forth to its observers. Is the Lord, then, you will ask, only sporting with us? Is it not the next thing to mockery, to hold out the hope of happiness, to invite and exhort us to it, to declare that it is set before us, while all the while the entrance to it is precluded and quite shut up? I answer, Although the promises, in so far as they are conditional, depend on a perfect obedience of the Law, which is nowhere to be found, they have not, however, been given in vain (CI: 2.7.4).

To declare that we are deemed righteous, solely because the obedience of Christ is imputed to us as if it where our own, is just to place our righteousness in the obedience of Christ…. And so indeed it is; for in order to appear in the presence of God *for salvation [*aside: to stand in a future judgment to determine salvation], we must send forth that fragrant odour, having our vices covered and buried by his perfection. (CI: 3.11.23).

For the meaning is—As by the sin of Adam we were alienated from God and doomed to destruction, so by the obedience of Christ we are restored to his favour as if we were righteous (CI: 2.17.3).

The very Reformed definition of righteousness is egregiously flawed. It’s works salvation. If the above is true, we are not justified APART FROM THE LAW:

Romans 3:19 – Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

Abraham was justified apart from the law—the law didn’t come until 430 years later. He was declared righteous because he believed God. Hence, GOD’S righteousness APART from the law has been manifested. If Christ had to keep the law perfectly for our righteousness—that’s NOT apart from the law, and moreover, Abraham could not have been justified. “But Paul, Christ’s righteousness was imputed to Abraham when He died on the cross.” Then what is the point that Paul is making in Galatians? Why make a point in regard to when the law came? The crux is the fact that the Reformed always make it a point to state that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. This is important to them (although the Bible always refers to it as the righteousness of God) because it imputes the perfect obedience of Christ (His life when He came as a man) to us so that the law is fulfilled for our salvation.

Galatians 3:11 – Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Galatians 2:16 – yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Look, if Christ lived a perfect life on earth to fulfill the law so that it could be imputed to us for righteousness—THAT’S NOT RIGHTOUSNESS APART FROM THE LAW. Though Christ kept it for us, it is still righteousness based on the law; right?

Hence, a proper definition of righteousness is, believing in God, not perfect obedience to the law. The law has no stake at all in righteousness that justifies. It informs our righteousness, but it does not affect it:

Romans 3:21 – But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

Galatians 4:21 – Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?

But if Christ had to keep the law for us, we are not declared righteous apart from the law, and we are still under it albeit fulfilled by Christ. We are either under law or under grace (Romans 6:14). The Bible never states that we are still under the law and covered by grace—it’s either one or the other. If we need the gospel of first importance just as much as we did when we were saved (a popular truism in our day), then we are still under the law. We will revisit Galatians in future study to aid us because Paul, in our chapter at hand, Romans nine, refers to what happened with three possible Abrahamic heirs from the book of Genesis. Where we were just at in Galatians makes the same notation:

Galatian 3:21 – Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Slavery? Right. Those under the law are enslaved to sin. Those born of the promise are free and under grace. This doesn’t exclude the law from informing our sanctification: “….do you not listen to the law?” Let me make a quick note here. Those who want to be under the law are never ones to strive in obeying the law perfectly. The idea that someone who desires to obey God’s word perfectly can be trying to do so in order to earn their salvation is a biblical anomaly. This is never the case, the under the law crowd always replace God’s truth with traditions taught by men, and it is always antinomianism. There are many ways to diss God’s law, and the most popular one is to use the same furniture in the tabernacle while rearranging location and purpose. Jewish sects that invaded the apostolic church are a perfect example. Consider what Paul said in regard to justification by circumcision:

Galatians 5:2 – Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[a] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Paul is referring to a false doctrine that misrepresented the purpose of circumcision. What was the result? Some kind of watering down of the law’s application in sanctification: “I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.” You doubt that? Look how Paul concludes his point: “You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?” Those under the law will always distort the truth. They function as ones against the law (antinomianism). “Legalism” is probably a word that we should eradicate from our Christian vocabulary. It’s not in the Bible anywhere, and it only causes confusion. “But Paul, churches that require a certain dress code etc., that’s not legalism?” No, absolutely not! That’s replacing God’s law with a tradition, and that is the specific definition of antinomianism in the Bible. “Antinomianism” (Greek: anomia) is in the Bible all over the place—“legalism” does not exist in the Scriptures. Paul was not addressing “legalism” in Galatians, he was addressing obedience issues—probably antinomian doctrines that devalued the need for obedience.

Next week, we need to lay more foundation for our understanding of election and its purpose in justification and sanctification. This will take us deeper into Genesis and Galatians as instruction for understanding Romans chapter nine.

Potter H. 1

22 Responses

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  1. Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 23, 2013 at 4:26 PM

    Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch.

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  2. Argo's avatar Argo said, on March 23, 2013 at 8:26 PM

    Paul,
    Needless to say I could not disagree with you more regarding the necessity of reason and logic to define the nature of those doctrines we believe. If we exceed both metaphysical and physical logic in defining the terms of our faith, then there can be no relationship with God, and further, can be ni lehitimate basis for our disagreements with Calvinism. for we concede that contadiction is the root of our faith…so, by definition jow can “proper” conclusions (doctrine) be eatablished? For even God Himself cannot functionally exist if not according to the rational foundations of His OWN reality.

    Your view of the Bible also seems to push the limits of grounded faith, in my opinion. The Bible cannot first be applied unless it is understood in man’s pragmatic context, and this context must be defined logically. Based on quantifiable and verifiable attributes, for that is how we KNOW anything. Your insistence on “apply don’t try” borders on idolatry.

    I will do a long rebuttal to your assumptions on my blog later this week.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 23, 2013 at 11:55 PM

      Argo,

      The truth of the Trinity is to be applied, not understood. We clearly do not understand how God is one, but yet three different persons. Likewise, the fact that God chooses and preordains is undeniable. Yet, the apostles clearly functioned on the hope of whosoever will. Paul and all others evangelized like it depended on them, and I think it did. How God weaves His sovereignty together with free will is paradoxical. Your assertion that we cannot believe in a God or form doctrine unless we can comprehend God’s purposes is unfounded. This not only brings God down to our level, but negates the necessity of trust and faith, the fact that God does explain metaphysics we can understand on may levels not withstanding.

      Furthermore, though the tension of election and whosoever will cannot be understood in this lifetime, election is very applicable to sanctification; it guarantees that nothing we do in sanctification can take away our justification. It serves the very important function of dividing the two. Calvinists believe the opposite. They believe that we were elected for entry into the race which must be run by faith alone–the same way we were saved. Their definition of total depravity is slavery to independence and wanting to do everything on our own. In other words, either/or: it’s either all us or all Christ. Hence, sanctification is a minefield; one must live out sanctification in a justification way to earn their way to heaven. In essence, salvation by anticommunism.

      Which brings me to my point. I don’t give a rats behind about Calvinism’s favorite red herring: the election/freewill debate. It’s neither here nor there. Calvinism is a false gospel of perpetual rebirth and shares the same exact fundamentals of Hinduism. I can’t wait for Susan’s unpacking of this at this year’s conference. Moreover, the doctrine isn’t even the point, the doctrine is just a means to their spiritual caste end. It all begins with a higher being, and preordained enlightened mediators leading the unenlightened masses. It started with ancient paganism which is where the Hindus got it. Then Plato got it from the Hindus. Then Augustine and Gregory got it from Plato. Then the Catholics got it from Auggie and Greg. Then the Reformers got it from the Catholics. That’s why the behavior is the same.

      You can debate election/freewill until the cows come home, but what Calvinists believe about justification is definitive. The election/freewill debate is fraught with speculation. Clearly, the apostles preached election, but rejected determinism and fatalism. So, that is where I am at. Whether one believes in deterministic election or foreknowledge election is neither here nor there to me–both are election and I simply don’t know how God works the two together. But election and freewill both have important life application. So, I apply it. And until God gives me more understanding, I will apply what I do understand as a matter of trust.

      And the Bible is God’s full metaphysical statement to man. The fact that it is a message to ALL of Mankind is key. A literal interpretation of it is the primary hermeneutic. Christians are people of God’s book. Like Christ said the rich man who begged Christ to send someone from the dead to warn his relatives: they have Moses and the prophets; if they will not listen to them, neither will they listen to someone raised from the dead. As far as authority, I don’t know what could be clearer.

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  3. Argo's avatar Argo said, on March 24, 2013 at 7:47 AM

    Paul,

    With great respect, seriously, you cannot expect to ground real faith in a false, contradictory reality. You cannot find truth in an idea that cannot possibly be true.

    It has nothing to do with knowing Gods mind. You have been agreeing with my critics. That is a false claim. Knowing Gods purpose is not a prerequisite for having doctrines grounded in reason. For example, understanding that you cannot define pre-ordaining or election as most do because it is impossible given that God does not function according to a “timeline”. There is no “future” with God, so to argue the “when” of God’s doing and knowing is pointless. Thus, we must redefine the doctrines according to metaphysical logic, not claim that free- will is trumped by an external force which we cannot describe, even if the intentions are good.

    It doesn’t matter how passionate you are, once you concede a force outside of man which compels him you have ceded the Calvinist argument. You cannot draw different conclusions from the same philosophical assumptions without ultimately appealing to subjective opinion. There is no truth that boils down to subjective argument. Reason and logic is the only way to define what we believe. Otherwise…we truly offer nothing different.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:06 PM

      Argo,

      Most of the Christian faith is logical, but mysteries belong to the Lord. Clearly, the Trinity cannot be understood, but yet the three members though one, have 3 separate roles in salvation. We cannot understand how they can be separate yet one, but their separate roles in salvation are certainly applicable. For one, per the Bible, we pray to the Father, not Christ or the Holy Spirit. In salvation, Our sin was imputed to Christ, the Father’s righteousness was imputed to us, and the Holy Spirit is our helper in sanctification. Those separate roles refute Calvinism which holds that Christ’s obedience during His life on earth was imputed to our sanctification. Holding to the sovereignty of God in matters of justification hardly makes me a Calvinist.

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  4. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:10 AM

    Paul,

    I, of course, agree with you that there are some points of God’s revelation that are mysterious to our finite minds, but to make a blanket statement like the following gives the wrong impression. “The Bible is to be applied—not figured out in a way that forms doctrine by logical conclusion.” You give the impression that logic either results from the sinful human mind or from Satan. Logic is God’s gift and must be used in the interpretation of his truth.

    I also have difficulty with your statement that the Bible is God’s message to ALL of Mankind. If that includes the New Testament Scriptures, does not the fact that almost all, if not all, of it is addressed to believers contradict that statement? If we misunderstood to whom it was addressed, we are almost certain to misinterpret it.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:47 PM

      You confuse me with your daddy Martin Luther who said that reason was an ugly whore who should have dung rubbed in her face. The Bible is for application–not meditation that births the Spirit realm into the flesh realm. In order to apply it, logic must be in play. Obviously. Your second assertion isn’t worth replying to.

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  5. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:18 AM

    “Furthermore, though the tension of election and whosoever will cannot be understood in this lifetime, election is very applicable to sanctification; it guarantees that nothing we do in sanctification can take away our justification. It serves the very important function of dividing the two. Calvinists believe the opposite. They believe that we were elected for entry into the race which must be run by faith alone–the same way we were saved. Their definition of total depravity is slavery to independence and wanting to do everything on our own. In other words, either/or: it’s either all us or all Christ. Hence, sanctification is a minefield; one must live out sanctification in a justification way to earn their way to heaven. In essence, salvation by anticommunism.”

    Paul,

    That statement is simply untrue. No Calvinist believes we earn our way to heaven. We also make a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. If a person has been truly justified before God, nothing whatsoever can ever cause him to lose that legal standing. Absolutely nothing! If you want to argue with us, why don’t you argue with something we truly believe?

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:41 PM

      Yes they do believe that Randy. I have quoted the likes of Piper on this extensively. Find them yourself–this blog has a search engine.

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  6. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:21 AM

    How can there be non-deterministic predestination?

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:37 PM

      Because God’s predestination doesn’t equal fatalistic determinism. That’s a logical conclusion formed by man’s limited understanding and has its foundations in Hinduism.

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  7. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:22 AM

    One thing we could probably agree on is that Argo is a nut case who should be ignored by everyone.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:35 PM

      No Randy, we don’t even agree on that.

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  8. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:27 AM

    Paul,

    When the Law was given relative to Abraham’s justification has nothing to do with whether it could be the standard for that justification. The basis of his justification did not occur until A.D. 29. Based on your argument, Christ’s redemptive work could not have been the basis of Abe’s justification since he was justified thousands of years before Jesus died.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:35 PM

      Your problem is with the apostle. He made the very point to refute what you are saying. Abraham BELIEVED GOD. What revealed truth that is available at the time is not necessarily the point. When one believes God, they trust God completely and believe whatever he reveals in the future. God makes the same point by telling Abraham to sacrifice his son. Nether do new Christians understand much about the Bible, but they will believe whatever they learn because they live by faith which will be manifested in their obedience regarding what they learn.

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  9. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:34 AM

    Paul,

    It would probably be helpful if you would define what you mean by “Law” and stick to that definition unless you are speaking about one of the other meanings used in the Bible. If by “Law” you mean God’s revealed will for his people under a given covenant, then, of course, the “Law” informs our sanctification. It is just that this is not the sense in which Paul used the term in much of the NT.

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:28 PM

      Bubba, man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of God (Matt 4:4). What would that include?

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  10. gracewriterrandy's avatar gracewriterrandy said, on March 24, 2013 at 9:37 AM

    Also, please note that in the text you cite, Paul wrote, “The righteousness of God IS MANIFESTED apart from the law. . . .” not “the righteousness of God IS apart from the Law.”

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    • Paul M. Dohse Sr.'s avatar paulspassingthoughts said, on March 24, 2013 at 1:26 PM

      Really? The righteousness shown is apart from the law but the same righteousness is not apart from the law? God’s revealed righteousness is apart from the law but His hidden righteousness is defined by the law? I keep asking you to send me some of that Costa Rica coffee. This is why–has to be good stuff.

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