lydiasellerofpurple said, on September 22, 2012 at 10:46 AM
“These guys need everything to END at the cross because that is where THEY take over. Instead of the Holy Spirit, Calvinism peaches the gnostic authority. This is a very dangerous theology…they, and more importantly us, the followers of these Pharisees, need to take a good hard look at this kind of teaching. I find the blasphemy disturbing to say the least.”
Excellent point! A great way to describe it: They take over after the Cross FOR the Holy Spirit. Kind of reminds me of the group from John the Baptist who only had one part of the picture and had to be taught. This same problem is going on all over Christendom. I don’t think we have begun to see the fall out from it.
I am curious if anyone thinks leaving out the true function of the Holy Spirit is in any way associated with the unpardonable sin?
lydiasellerofpurple said, on September 22, 2012 at 11:11 AM
Joey, I love your questions because I am a ‘why’ person. I have more of a birds eye view answer than Pauls mainly because I love history. This is nothing new. Just the methods because communication has changed.
Church history gives us a clue. The early Christians were mainly worried about “LIVING” as believers. But early one there started being disagreements about the nature of Christ and defining God. These disagreements were how we came to use the word “Trinity”.the disagreements included was Jesus more God than human? Or more human than God and what that meant in practice)
The “councils” started and while the councils were arguing, the state church started. Some cast these “councils” as theological gatherings when in fact they were political and in some cases violent. But what is interesting if you are talking with most Reformed ministers is they quote the result of the councils more than scripture. Because the councils define scripture.
If you look at that closely, what did the councils leave out that is the most important result of being a believer? HOW WE LIVE AS BELIEVERS. The CHANGED LIFE. The councils were defining concepts and even processes of salvation. The living it out part was pretty much lost. It became more about doctrine than “abiding in Christ” which ultimately leaves out the Holy Spirit in praxis.
I asked a scholar not long ago why Augustine has had so much influence. He gave me about 10 reasons and all made sense. he wrote a ton of stuff that was not destroyed.He had gravitas from his days in Rome. He appealed to current thought because he incorporated the well known neo Platonic thinking in how the world operated. He wrote in Latin because he knew no Greek, etc. But he also reminded me of what came about after Augustine’s influential writings: The Dark Ages. Where only a select few were even allowed to read the scriptures and tell people what they said.His Platonic theme of the incompetent masses was put into practice.
So why? Because it appeals to people in two ways: If you desire to be a leader, it give you control over people. (God hates the Nicolatians) If you are a follower, it gives you someone to tell you what is true. And nowadays, a bit of Charisma and telling people” this is real truth”, works.One reason I think this Neo Calvinism is making a comeback is because of 80 years of socialistic education. People no longer think for themselves. They are not taught “how” to think but “what” to think. Calvinism fits perfectly with this model. And we are a celebrity culture which fits well, too.
Church history has seen a ton of such things from state church to the “business” of Christianity as it went Westward. Just 30 years ago, the “seeker” movement was all the rage. It taught cheap grace and focusing on the “unchurched”. (that concept is not in the word. it is putting the cart before the horse). The seeker leaders made a ton of money and really started the rise of the Christian “market niche”. But I have to say the Reformed are beating their pants off. They are the masters of Christian marketing. Why? Because their system demands loyalty. And they get it. It is a lot like how Amway functions if you really take a good look at it. Guys just don’t decide one day to attende T4G. They HAVE to go to get fed. Their spiritual well being depends on it. That ain’t healthy.
lydiasellerofpurple said, on September 22, 2012 at 11:30 AM
Joey, sorry my sentences are so disjointed and hard to read. I got too many interruptions! I hope the gist of what I was trying to explain came through!
But I do want to add one more thing. I have been reading Reformed pastor blogs since blogging started. And over the years I have become convinced (and yes this is going to sound hyperbolic) that if it were legal to punish what they deem as the heretical, the landscape would look very different, indeed. The only thing standing between us and serious punishment for what they deem as heretical is our legal system and freedom of religion.. I see the roots of tyrannical thinking all over their words. They are so blinded by “doctrine over person” (which is a tenant of cultic thinking) that I truely believe if they had the power it would be even harsher than what we are seeing masquerading as church discipline.
Guess what many Neo Cals deem as “heretical”? If you believe that YOU can have faith then you are a heretic. Only God can cause you to have faith. You are UNABLE to respond to truth. God has to MAKE you respond. So Jesus’ words in His first real sermon of “Repent and Believe” only mean that God can make you repent and “believe”. Jesus was tellling many people to do what they could not do unless God forced them to. That is ultimately what they really believe but they will tell you with many confusing, vague words it isn’t.
Right now, we have well known men liike Mohler calling his peers “Semi Pelagians” (which was deemed heretical by one of the many famous councils of history) because they believe man can respond to the truth. He said this publicly! And hundreds of his trained minions (YRR) are carrying that heretic banner. When this has been debated on blogs, it is obvious the YRR have been indoctrinated even with a rewritten or incomplete history of what councils agreed and disagreed upon! The YRR arguments are from history only and even an incomplete history!
Roger Williams was banishedby the state church Puritans (not killed because he was too popular and even liked by Winthrop) because he believed in a concept of what he called “Soul Libertie”. He would rather debate those who disagreed with him than “discipline” them. But the Puritans could not win a debate with him and they knew it. He had to be silenced. he was making too much sense.
First of all Paul this great “stuff” you have posted is so beneficial. I am learning so much about the history of Christianity the good and the bad. This is why it is imperative that we learn from history- it is a link; a connection to our past and why so many strayed from the original intent of Scripture. Christ never designed His Word to confuse or complicate our faith in Him; in fact, it is the opposite it was designed to bring us closer to knowing Him fully BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The more we read the more we should hunger for it; the more we hunger the more we will have illumination of His Word and understand it. Without desiring Scripture and reading it we cannot be illuminated by the Holy Spirit. The CHURCH (Roman and Reformed) took Scripture away so that the sheep could not be illuminated ; so therefore, they remained dumb. God is very clear that one can only know the deep things of God through Scripture, nowhere else- not even your pastor can deliver that to you. We are responsible for our own relationship with God- knowing this and understanding that it is OUR RESPONSIBILITY in reality is a good thing! This guarantees us that we will have direct access to the High Priest. A pastors responsibility is just to point the flock to Scripture and to encourage them to go to the High Priest Jesus Christ. The pastors job is to be an exhorter and encourager.
It is the same thing as what is going on in our country right now where people have become lazy and dependant on someone else to make their decisions for them and not take responsibility. Yet they do nit get it!! There is more freedom in being responsible then relying on someone else; we are not in bondage to anyone. This is why Paul was so excited about carrying around the title of ” slave to Christ” because being a slave to Christ really translates to being completely free from the bondage and slavery of sin.
Lydtrueso appreciated your posts- very informative; very true!
Lydia,
Awesome posts. Enjoyed reading them immensely.
Funny how Calvinist churches are well within their rights to market like a business, and yet, it is a sin to church shop. More hypocrisy that gets swept under the rug of “sound” doctrine.
Anyway…point: If man does not have freedom of ability to believe and to obey, then God is doing it. God is not, however, doing it FOR him, but for Himself, because in this scenario, him-that is man-is irrelevant, and functionally non-existent. Knowing and doing are both functions of man’ singular ability-the power which is morally neutral and by which man does whatever he is able to do, and which is, I think the first seed of man; that which must first exist for man to exist as a separate, rational mind.
So, this being the case, it is impossible for man to be able to know God and at the same time be unable to choose Him. The same ability is the seed of both. If man is UNABLE to choose God he must be UNABLE to know him. Thus, for those who know and chose God, it must be either man doing both or God. If then man cannot choose God, then man cannot know Him. Therefore, and act “for” God by man is merely God acting for Himself through man’s body and mind (possessing him, if you will). Not only does this make God a creator of redundancy, but, if you accept the Bible as truth, it makes Him a liar and a hypocrite because it holds man culpable for what he is unable to do: good. And absolves God from what He effectively created and could cease but doesn’t: sin in man which man by Calvinist definition cannot help.
trust4himonly said, on September 22, 2012 at 10:52 PM
Plus Argo it would totally nullify all the verses that God tells the Israelites/Gentiles to CHOOSE whom you shall serve; follow, serve, obey, look to, etc….. these are all words that deal with us having a responsibility to respond and go into action.
lydiasellerofpurple said, on September 23, 2012 at 1:07 PM
“Funny how Calvinist churches are well within their rights to market like a business, and yet, it is a sin to church shop. More hypocrisy that gets swept under the rug of “sound” doctrine. ”
Case in point. SGM is marketing theirNEW church plant meeting(at my daughter’s school!!!) here and hold their first official service in a week or so. Now, keep in mind, this church plant is in a wealthy section of town AND there are a TON of churches in this area. Even Mohler’s church is about a mile away from this church plant.And the mega church whose members basically started the private Christian school back in the 70’s is but a few miles away. I am still blown away the school is allowing this but then many board members would bend over backwards for Mohler. Mahaney would have no where to go if not for Mohler protecting and promoting him.
Mahaney is known for targeting more affluent sheep as his marketing method. We will see how it goes. I will do my part to warn folks.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
“These guys need everything to END at the cross because that is where THEY take over. Instead of the Holy Spirit, Calvinism peaches the gnostic authority. This is a very dangerous theology…they, and more importantly us, the followers of these Pharisees, need to take a good hard look at this kind of teaching. I find the blasphemy disturbing to say the least.”
Excellent point! A great way to describe it: They take over after the Cross FOR the Holy Spirit. Kind of reminds me of the group from John the Baptist who only had one part of the picture and had to be taught. This same problem is going on all over Christendom. I don’t think we have begun to see the fall out from it.
I am curious if anyone thinks leaving out the true function of the Holy Spirit is in any way associated with the unpardonable sin?
LikeLike
Joey, I love your questions because I am a ‘why’ person. I have more of a birds eye view answer than Pauls mainly because I love history. This is nothing new. Just the methods because communication has changed.
Church history gives us a clue. The early Christians were mainly worried about “LIVING” as believers. But early one there started being disagreements about the nature of Christ and defining God. These disagreements were how we came to use the word “Trinity”.the disagreements included was Jesus more God than human? Or more human than God and what that meant in practice)
The “councils” started and while the councils were arguing, the state church started. Some cast these “councils” as theological gatherings when in fact they were political and in some cases violent. But what is interesting if you are talking with most Reformed ministers is they quote the result of the councils more than scripture. Because the councils define scripture.
If you look at that closely, what did the councils leave out that is the most important result of being a believer? HOW WE LIVE AS BELIEVERS. The CHANGED LIFE. The councils were defining concepts and even processes of salvation. The living it out part was pretty much lost. It became more about doctrine than “abiding in Christ” which ultimately leaves out the Holy Spirit in praxis.
I asked a scholar not long ago why Augustine has had so much influence. He gave me about 10 reasons and all made sense. he wrote a ton of stuff that was not destroyed.He had gravitas from his days in Rome. He appealed to current thought because he incorporated the well known neo Platonic thinking in how the world operated. He wrote in Latin because he knew no Greek, etc. But he also reminded me of what came about after Augustine’s influential writings: The Dark Ages. Where only a select few were even allowed to read the scriptures and tell people what they said.His Platonic theme of the incompetent masses was put into practice.
So why? Because it appeals to people in two ways: If you desire to be a leader, it give you control over people. (God hates the Nicolatians) If you are a follower, it gives you someone to tell you what is true. And nowadays, a bit of Charisma and telling people” this is real truth”, works.One reason I think this Neo Calvinism is making a comeback is because of 80 years of socialistic education. People no longer think for themselves. They are not taught “how” to think but “what” to think. Calvinism fits perfectly with this model. And we are a celebrity culture which fits well, too.
Church history has seen a ton of such things from state church to the “business” of Christianity as it went Westward. Just 30 years ago, the “seeker” movement was all the rage. It taught cheap grace and focusing on the “unchurched”. (that concept is not in the word. it is putting the cart before the horse). The seeker leaders made a ton of money and really started the rise of the Christian “market niche”. But I have to say the Reformed are beating their pants off. They are the masters of Christian marketing. Why? Because their system demands loyalty. And they get it. It is a lot like how Amway functions if you really take a good look at it. Guys just don’t decide one day to attende T4G. They HAVE to go to get fed. Their spiritual well being depends on it. That ain’t healthy.
LikeLike
Joey, sorry my sentences are so disjointed and hard to read. I got too many interruptions! I hope the gist of what I was trying to explain came through!
But I do want to add one more thing. I have been reading Reformed pastor blogs since blogging started. And over the years I have become convinced (and yes this is going to sound hyperbolic) that if it were legal to punish what they deem as the heretical, the landscape would look very different, indeed. The only thing standing between us and serious punishment for what they deem as heretical is our legal system and freedom of religion.. I see the roots of tyrannical thinking all over their words. They are so blinded by “doctrine over person” (which is a tenant of cultic thinking) that I truely believe if they had the power it would be even harsher than what we are seeing masquerading as church discipline.
Guess what many Neo Cals deem as “heretical”? If you believe that YOU can have faith then you are a heretic. Only God can cause you to have faith. You are UNABLE to respond to truth. God has to MAKE you respond. So Jesus’ words in His first real sermon of “Repent and Believe” only mean that God can make you repent and “believe”. Jesus was tellling many people to do what they could not do unless God forced them to. That is ultimately what they really believe but they will tell you with many confusing, vague words it isn’t.
Right now, we have well known men liike Mohler calling his peers “Semi Pelagians” (which was deemed heretical by one of the many famous councils of history) because they believe man can respond to the truth. He said this publicly! And hundreds of his trained minions (YRR) are carrying that heretic banner. When this has been debated on blogs, it is obvious the YRR have been indoctrinated even with a rewritten or incomplete history of what councils agreed and disagreed upon! The YRR arguments are from history only and even an incomplete history!
Roger Williams was banishedby the state church Puritans (not killed because he was too popular and even liked by Winthrop) because he believed in a concept of what he called “Soul Libertie”. He would rather debate those who disagreed with him than “discipline” them. But the Puritans could not win a debate with him and they knew it. He had to be silenced. he was making too much sense.
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Paul,
Thanks for your reply. Those are good ideas.
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First of all Paul this great “stuff” you have posted is so beneficial. I am learning so much about the history of Christianity the good and the bad. This is why it is imperative that we learn from history- it is a link; a connection to our past and why so many strayed from the original intent of Scripture. Christ never designed His Word to confuse or complicate our faith in Him; in fact, it is the opposite it was designed to bring us closer to knowing Him fully BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. The more we read the more we should hunger for it; the more we hunger the more we will have illumination of His Word and understand it. Without desiring Scripture and reading it we cannot be illuminated by the Holy Spirit. The CHURCH (Roman and Reformed) took Scripture away so that the sheep could not be illuminated ; so therefore, they remained dumb. God is very clear that one can only know the deep things of God through Scripture, nowhere else- not even your pastor can deliver that to you. We are responsible for our own relationship with God- knowing this and understanding that it is OUR RESPONSIBILITY in reality is a good thing! This guarantees us that we will have direct access to the High Priest. A pastors responsibility is just to point the flock to Scripture and to encourage them to go to the High Priest Jesus Christ. The pastors job is to be an exhorter and encourager.
It is the same thing as what is going on in our country right now where people have become lazy and dependant on someone else to make their decisions for them and not take responsibility. Yet they do nit get it!! There is more freedom in being responsible then relying on someone else; we are not in bondage to anyone. This is why Paul was so excited about carrying around the title of ” slave to Christ” because being a slave to Christ really translates to being completely free from the bondage and slavery of sin.
Lydtrueso appreciated your posts- very informative; very true!
LikeLike
Lydia,
Awesome posts. Enjoyed reading them immensely.
Funny how Calvinist churches are well within their rights to market like a business, and yet, it is a sin to church shop. More hypocrisy that gets swept under the rug of “sound” doctrine.
Anyway…point: If man does not have freedom of ability to believe and to obey, then God is doing it. God is not, however, doing it FOR him, but for Himself, because in this scenario, him-that is man-is irrelevant, and functionally non-existent. Knowing and doing are both functions of man’ singular ability-the power which is morally neutral and by which man does whatever he is able to do, and which is, I think the first seed of man; that which must first exist for man to exist as a separate, rational mind.
So, this being the case, it is impossible for man to be able to know God and at the same time be unable to choose Him. The same ability is the seed of both. If man is UNABLE to choose God he must be UNABLE to know him. Thus, for those who know and chose God, it must be either man doing both or God. If then man cannot choose God, then man cannot know Him. Therefore, and act “for” God by man is merely God acting for Himself through man’s body and mind (possessing him, if you will). Not only does this make God a creator of redundancy, but, if you accept the Bible as truth, it makes Him a liar and a hypocrite because it holds man culpable for what he is unable to do: good. And absolves God from what He effectively created and could cease but doesn’t: sin in man which man by Calvinist definition cannot help.
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Sorry Lydia, I don’t know what happened there with your name
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Plus Argo it would totally nullify all the verses that God tells the Israelites/Gentiles to CHOOSE whom you shall serve; follow, serve, obey, look to, etc….. these are all words that deal with us having a responsibility to respond and go into action.
LikeLike
“Funny how Calvinist churches are well within their rights to market like a business, and yet, it is a sin to church shop. More hypocrisy that gets swept under the rug of “sound” doctrine. ”
Case in point. SGM is marketing theirNEW church plant meeting(at my daughter’s school!!!) here and hold their first official service in a week or so. Now, keep in mind, this church plant is in a wealthy section of town AND there are a TON of churches in this area. Even Mohler’s church is about a mile away from this church plant.And the mega church whose members basically started the private Christian school back in the 70’s is but a few miles away. I am still blown away the school is allowing this but then many board members would bend over backwards for Mohler. Mahaney would have no where to go if not for Mohler protecting and promoting him.
Mahaney is known for targeting more affluent sheep as his marketing method. We will see how it goes. I will do my part to warn folks.
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Lydia –
I think you should go visit the new plant 🙂 Maybe even ask a few questions of the pastor 🙂
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