paulspassingthoughts said, on September 21, 2012 at 9:53 AM
Thanks Argy.
What do think are the most significant points of this presentation? I wish I had more time to invest in them, but I’m interested in what folks draw from them regardless.
I disagree with the first premise though. Christ did not die to make us holy. Christ died because we were not holy. His sacrifice was the testimony of Gods mercy…in spite of our lack of our sin, the perfect sacrifice is why we can still be saved. Holiness is not a prerequisite for salvation…thus Christ did not die to make us holy. He died so we could be saved. There were no other motives. We are to be holy as evidence of our salvation and the Spirit’s power. Christs sacrifice has nothing to do with our “holiness” but everything to do with our lack thereof. Claiming that Jesus died “to make us Holy” is merely another way these Gnostics attempt to separate the believer from the Holy Spirit. If they ever concede that it is the Spirit which makes us holy, they understand that their “authority” blows away…that the believer first answers to God and conscience, not Kevin and his comrades. Jesus’s work on the cross is finished. And He may die so that the Spirit may come, but remember, the Spirit comes of His own accord, and does His own unique part. Holiness is thus by the power of the Holy Ghost, not Christ.
paulspassingthoughts said, on September 21, 2012 at 10:15 AM
Argo,
That’s the question Susan raised this morning as she was listening to the video. She concurs with your statement on that. It is very hard to nail these guys on the fact that they believe God and the HS play second fiddle to Christ–but they most definitely do.
These guys need everything to END at the cross because that is where THEY take over. Instead of the Holy Spirit, Calvinism peaches the gnostic authority. This is a very dangerous theology…they, and more importantly us, the followers of these Pharisees, need to take a good hard look at this kind of teaching. I find the blasphemy disturbing to say the least.
Yes…they do. The real reasons why have everything to do with their own authority. Christ is the sacrifice, they are the power by which God and the HS are manifest. They cannot claim equality w Christ, hence the reason that the HS and God are “lower”.
I appreciate your talent for picking out the “carefully chosen words.” Very edifying. I realize that one’s speaking style is inherent and difficult to change, but I think it would be more effective if you sped it up a little. Perhaps use notes; or, if you are, more detailed notes. I, myself, need detailed, almost verbatim notes when I speak before a small group. Before a large group, I write down every word. I admire people who speak just as well extemporaneously, but not all of us can do this. Hope this is helpful, not hurtful.
paulspassingthoughts said, on September 21, 2012 at 6:15 PM
Jeff,
Not hurtful at all. We are aware of the problem. The problem is that the time to properly prepare for these videos is just not there. What we are in the process of doing is using a transcriber service to transcribe the videos, remove all the video ticks, maybe some grammar corrections, and then we are going to redo the videos from a script. I think our first project is going to be the New Calvinism for Dummies series. We are going to clean that up and beef it up and offer it DVD with a workbook. Lots of plans–Lord willing. And thanks much for the input.
paul
paulspassingthoughts said, on September 21, 2012 at 6:20 PM
Jeff,
In fact, we are getting a lot good feedback on this video–I think we might go ahead and revise it next week. NOW, if anyone would like to use a particular video for some purpose like a Sunday School or Bible study–we can revise it for them and clean it up.
I can’t remember the last time I heard a Neo Cal Pastor talk about the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life. If Neo Cal’s started teaching people what Scripture clearly says about the Holy Spirit, there would be much less need for the “Pastor” to stand in the stead. There would also be little need for the endless parade of books to inform us how we should live. They might actually put themselves out of the “businesses” they have created. The conferences might die out as well. Heck people might read their Bibles too :). (Sorry — I’m a bit heavy on the sarcasm today.)
By heavens, Bridget, you have every right to be sarcastic. You make very good points, and the sarcasm adds the punch.:-) SGM wasn’t worried about my sensibilities when they told me I could go dig a hole. So…not real worried about their (calvinist) dainty egos.
Howdy, Paul. Do you believe that New Calvinists are self-consciously trying to deceive people,shatter self-confidence, destroy justice, manipulate, etc, for purpose of control, or do you think that these things are primarily results of bad (false) doctrine–doctrine not recognized by them as false? Or let me put it this way: Are they simply deceived by false doctrine and this deception causes/encourages them to seek control over others, or does their desire for control encourage them to accept false doctrine?
paulspassingthoughts said, on September 21, 2012 at 10:27 PM
Joey,
The motif is what drives them and fleshly instincts are all too happy to join the party. They believe they are on the cutting edge of the rediscovered Reformation gospel. Because the true Reformation gospel was lost, the church is presently in a dark age. They see themselves as modern-day Reformers in the order of Martin Luther and John Calvin. They carefully craft their words because many are “not ready” for the hardcore truth of the Reformation. That’s the deception part: the idea is to feed the masses the doctrine a bite at a time until it is completely assimilated into the minds of others. Progressive justification is perfect for that because all they have to do is keep pounding on grace and never talk of the real essence of sanctification. Pretty soon, the one becomes out of sight–out of mind–leaving only “grace.” What makes this powerful is the point that it is in-fact true that the real Reformation doctrine was rediscovered in 1970. But why did it die out? 1. the doctrine always results in tyranny. The doctrine is little more than Marxism dressed in biblical garb. 2. The saints finally catch on to the fact that it is sanctification by faith alone, antinomianism, and progressive justification. 3. Christians start taking note of the doctrine’s ill results of ruined lives, friendships, and marriages. 4. Its ill doctrine eventually leads to boredom and burnout. Susan and I recently visited two churches that were pioneers in the whole neo-Reformed church format that started taking hold on this area in circa 1992. They were both dead. Fairly large numbers, but unfriendly, and just going through the motions. Dead people acting like they were full of joy and happiness. It was truly a pathetic scene.
The doctrine itself calls for the spiritually elite to control the totally depraved zombie sheep. Do they target self-confidence? YES! Control is the target. So, who they think they are is really driving it all.
lydiasellerofpurple said, on September 22, 2012 at 10:39 AM
“Claiming that Jesus died “to make us Holy” is merely another way these Gnostics attempt to separate the believer from the Holy Spirit. If they ever concede that it is the Spirit which makes us holy, they understand that their “authority” blows away…that the believer first answers to God and conscience, not Kevin and his comrades. Jesus’s work on the cross is finished. And He may die so that the Spirit may come, but remember, the Spirit comes of His own accord, and does His own unique part. Holiness is thus by the power of the Holy Ghost, not Christ.”
Bingo! And this is why their definition of God’s Sovereignty affirms this Gnostic position. Something that I have noticed for a long long time is very little mention of the Holy Spirit and when there is, the work is “already done”.They are very vague about the Holy Spirit.
I feel very blessed that the Holy Spirit was a huge teaching topic when I was young. It was one of the first HUGE red flags for me.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Reblogged this on Clearcreek Chapel Watch.
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Paul,
Your talent for commentary is significant. Thanks for shedding light on Calvinist darkness.
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Thanks Argy.
What do think are the most significant points of this presentation? I wish I had more time to invest in them, but I’m interested in what folks draw from them regardless.
Thanks,
paul
LikeLike
I disagree with the first premise though. Christ did not die to make us holy. Christ died because we were not holy. His sacrifice was the testimony of Gods mercy…in spite of our lack of our sin, the perfect sacrifice is why we can still be saved. Holiness is not a prerequisite for salvation…thus Christ did not die to make us holy. He died so we could be saved. There were no other motives. We are to be holy as evidence of our salvation and the Spirit’s power. Christs sacrifice has nothing to do with our “holiness” but everything to do with our lack thereof. Claiming that Jesus died “to make us Holy” is merely another way these Gnostics attempt to separate the believer from the Holy Spirit. If they ever concede that it is the Spirit which makes us holy, they understand that their “authority” blows away…that the believer first answers to God and conscience, not Kevin and his comrades. Jesus’s work on the cross is finished. And He may die so that the Spirit may come, but remember, the Spirit comes of His own accord, and does His own unique part. Holiness is thus by the power of the Holy Ghost, not Christ.
LikeLike
Argo,
That’s the question Susan raised this morning as she was listening to the video. She concurs with your statement on that. It is very hard to nail these guys on the fact that they believe God and the HS play second fiddle to Christ–but they most definitely do.
LikeLike
These guys need everything to END at the cross because that is where THEY take over. Instead of the Holy Spirit, Calvinism peaches the gnostic authority. This is a very dangerous theology…they, and more importantly us, the followers of these Pharisees, need to take a good hard look at this kind of teaching. I find the blasphemy disturbing to say the least.
LikeLike
Yes…they do. The real reasons why have everything to do with their own authority. Christ is the sacrifice, they are the power by which God and the HS are manifest. They cannot claim equality w Christ, hence the reason that the HS and God are “lower”.
LikeLike
Paul,
I appreciate your talent for picking out the “carefully chosen words.” Very edifying. I realize that one’s speaking style is inherent and difficult to change, but I think it would be more effective if you sped it up a little. Perhaps use notes; or, if you are, more detailed notes. I, myself, need detailed, almost verbatim notes when I speak before a small group. Before a large group, I write down every word. I admire people who speak just as well extemporaneously, but not all of us can do this. Hope this is helpful, not hurtful.
LikeLike
Jeff,
Not hurtful at all. We are aware of the problem. The problem is that the time to properly prepare for these videos is just not there. What we are in the process of doing is using a transcriber service to transcribe the videos, remove all the video ticks, maybe some grammar corrections, and then we are going to redo the videos from a script. I think our first project is going to be the New Calvinism for Dummies series. We are going to clean that up and beef it up and offer it DVD with a workbook. Lots of plans–Lord willing. And thanks much for the input.
paul
LikeLike
Jeff,
In fact, we are getting a lot good feedback on this video–I think we might go ahead and revise it next week. NOW, if anyone would like to use a particular video for some purpose like a Sunday School or Bible study–we can revise it for them and clean it up.
paul
LikeLike
I can’t remember the last time I heard a Neo Cal Pastor talk about the work of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life. If Neo Cal’s started teaching people what Scripture clearly says about the Holy Spirit, there would be much less need for the “Pastor” to stand in the stead. There would also be little need for the endless parade of books to inform us how we should live. They might actually put themselves out of the “businesses” they have created. The conferences might die out as well. Heck people might read their Bibles too :). (Sorry — I’m a bit heavy on the sarcasm today.)
LikeLike
By heavens, Bridget, you have every right to be sarcastic. You make very good points, and the sarcasm adds the punch.:-) SGM wasn’t worried about my sensibilities when they told me I could go dig a hole. So…not real worried about their (calvinist) dainty egos.
LikeLike
Howdy, Paul. Do you believe that New Calvinists are self-consciously trying to deceive people,shatter self-confidence, destroy justice, manipulate, etc, for purpose of control, or do you think that these things are primarily results of bad (false) doctrine–doctrine not recognized by them as false? Or let me put it this way: Are they simply deceived by false doctrine and this deception causes/encourages them to seek control over others, or does their desire for control encourage them to accept false doctrine?
LikeLike
Joey,
The motif is what drives them and fleshly instincts are all too happy to join the party. They believe they are on the cutting edge of the rediscovered Reformation gospel. Because the true Reformation gospel was lost, the church is presently in a dark age. They see themselves as modern-day Reformers in the order of Martin Luther and John Calvin. They carefully craft their words because many are “not ready” for the hardcore truth of the Reformation. That’s the deception part: the idea is to feed the masses the doctrine a bite at a time until it is completely assimilated into the minds of others. Progressive justification is perfect for that because all they have to do is keep pounding on grace and never talk of the real essence of sanctification. Pretty soon, the one becomes out of sight–out of mind–leaving only “grace.” What makes this powerful is the point that it is in-fact true that the real Reformation doctrine was rediscovered in 1970. But why did it die out? 1. the doctrine always results in tyranny. The doctrine is little more than Marxism dressed in biblical garb. 2. The saints finally catch on to the fact that it is sanctification by faith alone, antinomianism, and progressive justification. 3. Christians start taking note of the doctrine’s ill results of ruined lives, friendships, and marriages. 4. Its ill doctrine eventually leads to boredom and burnout. Susan and I recently visited two churches that were pioneers in the whole neo-Reformed church format that started taking hold on this area in circa 1992. They were both dead. Fairly large numbers, but unfriendly, and just going through the motions. Dead people acting like they were full of joy and happiness. It was truly a pathetic scene.
The doctrine itself calls for the spiritually elite to control the totally depraved zombie sheep. Do they target self-confidence? YES! Control is the target. So, who they think they are is really driving it all.
paul
LikeLike
“Claiming that Jesus died “to make us Holy” is merely another way these Gnostics attempt to separate the believer from the Holy Spirit. If they ever concede that it is the Spirit which makes us holy, they understand that their “authority” blows away…that the believer first answers to God and conscience, not Kevin and his comrades. Jesus’s work on the cross is finished. And He may die so that the Spirit may come, but remember, the Spirit comes of His own accord, and does His own unique part. Holiness is thus by the power of the Holy Ghost, not Christ.”
Bingo! And this is why their definition of God’s Sovereignty affirms this Gnostic position. Something that I have noticed for a long long time is very little mention of the Holy Spirit and when there is, the work is “already done”.They are very vague about the Holy Spirit.
I feel very blessed that the Holy Spirit was a huge teaching topic when I was young. It was one of the first HUGE red flags for me.
LikeLike