Lin,
When I get time, I am going to find out what university it was over in Europe where he spoke. If it is a Christian university, that would be interesting:
1. Why was he preaching the gospel to them?
2. Did he think that a Christian University had no grip on the true gospel?
3. If not, what gospel does he think they believe?
4. And what makes it insufficient?
5. Why weren’t the differences pointed out?
I just think it’s interesting that he didn’t mention whether the university was secular or Christian. Think about it: what would we assume if someone said to us, “I preached the gospel at a university the other day.”
I once attended a Messianic Congregation that was fine until our pastor left and a new one took over. He said that all Jews, believers and non-believers (sometimes he included Gentiles) were under the Mosaic Law to obey it, with blessings following obedience and curses following disobedience. He said this had to do with sanctification, but taught it as if it had to do with justification. Believers started doubting their salvation because they did not obey the Law perfectly. He would tell them that it wasn’t supposed to be easy, etc. You can imagine the confusion. He was finally let go.
Is this something like what these New Calvinists do? If asked (if anyone dares to ask), do they say that they’re teaching sanctification when it sure sounds like justification, and vice versa? I doubt that they’d say they were teaching a combination of the two even if they were. Do you think that they are purposely sowing confusion in order to wield power, or are they themselves genuinely confused?
paulspassingthoughts said, on July 15, 2012 at 8:48 PM
JB,
Got your other comment on this, but let me just say that New Calvinists know their Reformed theology very well–I will certainly give them that. They talk about Just and sanc as if they are the same because that’s what they believe.
I wrote the last comment before reading your “The True Gospel vs. Calvinism, Pt. 1.” Interesting how the two intertwine. I expect Part 2 may go some way toward answering my questions.
What you describe is ‘One Law Theology’ more common in the Hebrew Roots Movement stream of thought, which is mandatory Law-keeping (in their case they define ‘commandments’ every time it appears in the Scriptures as Mosaic Covenant Law) for all believers. If, once one becomes aware of their duty to the Law and they willfully disobey, then they are either not really saved or will at best be least in the kingdom, at worst, be utterly cast out (lose their salvation according to their erroneous doctrine). While Messianic Judaism (not to be confused with Christians who happen to be Jewish who are content being One New Man in Christ with Gentiles) tends to preach ‘Divine Invitation’, where there is still a heavy emphasis on Law-keeping, but it is considered mandatory only for Jews and optional for Gentiles.
Interestingly enough, many in the Hebrew Roots Movement have begun to promote/endorse Paul Washer’s teachings; salvation by grace and then there are certain things that you MUST do. They endorse Washer with the caveat that Washer ‘hasn’t come into full Torah-truth yet’, but that he’s on the ‘right track’.
If our righteousness depends on our performance of Law, whether it be Old Covenant Law or any other law, we’re all sunk. For those in Christ, our righteousness comes from Christ, for just as sin was imputed to us from the First Adam, so righteousness is imputed to those who believe in the Last Adam (Romans chapters 5-8 ROCK!).
What I see those in Law-keeping sects doing is ignoring the reality of the New Creation; we who believe on Christ are different in Christ – the Holy Spirit re-makes us from the inside out. For some the change is drastic and relatively quick; for others the change is a long progression of learning to walk in His Grace. For all it will take a lifetime, as we who are in Christ while in the flesh will always contend to some extent with sin. Regardless of that, we who are in Christ are also the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)!
While I see the goals of movements like the HRM and Holiness preachers such as Washer as ‘good’ as far as fleshly morality is concerned, they are not based in the Gospel and bear fruits of the flesh and not of the Spirit. Jesus didn’t come to make Law-breakers into Law-keepers; Jesus came to make spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people. As we walk in His Grace and allow Him to live through us, sinful acts become less and less in our lives. As others have noted, it’s not all about us and self-focus, examining our belly-buttons all the time, but our focus is to be on Christ Jesus, allowing Him to live through us. We are exhorted to examine ourselves to see whether or not we are in the faith, not whether or not we are sinning:
2 Corinthians 13:5-10
5 >>> Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith;<<>> the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.<< Right thinking —-> Right Behavior
Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, >>> but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.<<<
After several years of observing and contending with those in Law-centered/behavior-centered streams of thought, it is evident that right behavior for right behavior's sake, establishing one's own righteousness, leads to fruits of the flesh: self-righteousness, arrogance, pride, etc. If one is abiding in Christ, bearing the Fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control), out of those things FLOW right behavior! God's Grace really is the mose amazing thing!
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [Grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
I agree with you. The logic is simple. If you are still a sinner (a function of sin under the law) then sanctification must be meaningless if it is of you. Any good works MUST be God’s and God’s alone. In other words: progressive justification. Worse, really, if you are still a sinner, then you could not have been saved. Christ’s blood was useless to you. Under Christ we can NOT be declared a function of sin any more. No sin can condemn us because no sin can define us.
Has he ever read Genesis? God created man, and man was good. Man himself IS good. He sins as a function of the Law of good and evil, but his physical root is good. That is why he can be redeemed. That is why he is not totally depraved.
Man WAS good, not man IS good. Two entirely very different teachings. The former was true before the fall. the latter is no longer true since. It only took one chapter later to change that reality.
paulspassingthoughts said, on May 3, 2013 at 11:48 AM
No Matt, that’s not believed here. We believe that the new birth not only declares us righteous positionally, but also makes us righteous. We reject Paul Washer’s heretical total depravity of the saints. Of course, the Reformed reply is, “So, you’re righteous? Did you sin today?” And of course, this shows clearly that they believe Christians are still under the law and that law is the standard for justification which turns the book of Romans completely upside down. The idea that Christians are not righteous fits with Paul’s definition of the lost in Romans: Under law = enslaved to sin. Moreover, as stated in the video, this contradicts Romans 15:14.
Paul Washer teaches imputed righteousness, and he states that many times on the videos of his sermons. He also clearly teaches grace by faith, and that nothing saves you except for the blood of Christ. He also believes in once saved always saved, it’s just that many professing to be Christians never were really saved to begin with. He believes that to keep from sinning that we need to constantly keep out eyes on Jesus, that the further we turn from Him, the closer to sin we get, thus why he says we need to turn back repeatedly. He doesn’t teach that we need to repeatedly seek salvation. Washer says, ” Not only must we repent, but we must recognize that there is absolutely nothing in us that can save us. As the hymn writer said, ‘My hands I bring, but only to the cross of Christ do I cling.'”
He says, “It is a recognition that you have only one hope, and 100% of that hope is found in the person and the work of Jesus Christ, that you know that you cannot save yourself, that if someone were to suggest that you would enter Heaven by some works of righteousness, it would cause you to become nauseous, and you would cry out, ‘No! No! Blasphemy!'”
He continues, “I am saved only for one reason. 2000 years ago, the Son of God bled and died for me. So, salvation comes to us through repentance and through faith in Jesus Christ. Now if you truly believe in Christ you have eternal life. But how do you know that you have truly believed? Even if you have had some sort of conversion experience and you’ve felt some sort of peace with God and so many emotions, how do you really know that it is real? Well, one of the ways that you know it’s real is that it will continue. It’s not that necessarily that the emotional high will continue, but what will continue is you will continue to grow i grace. You will continue to deepen in your repentance, your reliance on Jesus. You will continue to continue to deepen your faith little by little you will be transformed more and more into the image of Jesus Christ. Well, you say, ‘Brother Paul, does a real Christian sin?’ Yes, sadly enough, yes. ‘Can a real Christian fall into sin?’ Yes. But here is the difference. A real Christian (he uses Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?) cannot live in a continuous state of carnality, a continuous immaturity, because the Bible says that He who began a good work in you shall finish it.”
Washer goes on, “The Bible talks of in in Hebrews 12 that one of the greatest signs of true conversion is that God will watch over you with loving parenteral care and He will even discipline you, chastise you when you turn off the path. Not because His attitude toward you has changed, but because He loves you and desires your whole lineage. You see, when you became a Christian, you became part of God’s providence, and He Who began a good work will finish it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that God is just, that man is radically depraved and worthy of all condemnation, that in order to forgive men, God’s justice had to be satisfied. And that was done on the cross where Christ stood in the place of His people, bore their sin and was crushed under the full weight of God’s wrath against them. On dying, he paid the price in full, He is risen from the dead, and now all men everywhere may be saved, through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.”
He states that he absolutely is not teaching a works salvation, that because we are saved through Christ, we should wish to continue the work of God, which naturally leads to a greater holiness in us when we walk in the steps of Christ. Apparently some here haven’t heard much of Washer’s preaching.
paulspassingthoughts said, on July 23, 2013 at 6:24 PM
Suzy,
Everything you cite above is in context of Washer’s belief that justification and sanctification are the same thing. He absolutely does believe that we keep ourselves saved through the process of “mortification and vivification.” While constantly pontificating about easy-believeism, he himself is in danger of being condemned for teaching a false gospel.
Suzy I think you hit the nail on the head so far as explaining Paul Washer’s theology. From what I heard him say Paul makes a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. They go hand in hand but they are not the same. The evidence that a person has been justified is that he or she will show evidence for their sanctification. They hate sin and they delight to do the will of God. This is not salvation by works as some of Paul Washer’s critics erroneously assert. Salvation is by grace through faith. Total depravity is Biblical. In fact all the points of TULIP are verified by holy scripture.
paulspassingthoughts said, on January 12, 2015 at 7:58 AM
Carlton,
I am going to call you out on your intellectual dishonesty. You make no point in your post, you only restate canned orthodoxy. Tell me what the Reformed doctrine of the vital union is and how mortification and vivification relates to it.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Lin,
When I get time, I am going to find out what university it was over in Europe where he spoke. If it is a Christian university, that would be interesting:
1. Why was he preaching the gospel to them?
2. Did he think that a Christian University had no grip on the true gospel?
3. If not, what gospel does he think they believe?
4. And what makes it insufficient?
5. Why weren’t the differences pointed out?
I just think it’s interesting that he didn’t mention whether the university was secular or Christian. Think about it: what would we assume if someone said to us, “I preached the gospel at a university the other day.”
LikeLike
I once attended a Messianic Congregation that was fine until our pastor left and a new one took over. He said that all Jews, believers and non-believers (sometimes he included Gentiles) were under the Mosaic Law to obey it, with blessings following obedience and curses following disobedience. He said this had to do with sanctification, but taught it as if it had to do with justification. Believers started doubting their salvation because they did not obey the Law perfectly. He would tell them that it wasn’t supposed to be easy, etc. You can imagine the confusion. He was finally let go.
Is this something like what these New Calvinists do? If asked (if anyone dares to ask), do they say that they’re teaching sanctification when it sure sounds like justification, and vice versa? I doubt that they’d say they were teaching a combination of the two even if they were. Do you think that they are purposely sowing confusion in order to wield power, or are they themselves genuinely confused?
LikeLike
JB,
Got your other comment on this, but let me just say that New Calvinists know their Reformed theology very well–I will certainly give them that. They talk about Just and sanc as if they are the same because that’s what they believe.
LikeLike
Paul,
I wrote the last comment before reading your “The True Gospel vs. Calvinism, Pt. 1.” Interesting how the two intertwine. I expect Part 2 may go some way toward answering my questions.
LikeLike
JeffB,
What you describe is ‘One Law Theology’ more common in the Hebrew Roots Movement stream of thought, which is mandatory Law-keeping (in their case they define ‘commandments’ every time it appears in the Scriptures as Mosaic Covenant Law) for all believers. If, once one becomes aware of their duty to the Law and they willfully disobey, then they are either not really saved or will at best be least in the kingdom, at worst, be utterly cast out (lose their salvation according to their erroneous doctrine). While Messianic Judaism (not to be confused with Christians who happen to be Jewish who are content being One New Man in Christ with Gentiles) tends to preach ‘Divine Invitation’, where there is still a heavy emphasis on Law-keeping, but it is considered mandatory only for Jews and optional for Gentiles.
Interestingly enough, many in the Hebrew Roots Movement have begun to promote/endorse Paul Washer’s teachings; salvation by grace and then there are certain things that you MUST do. They endorse Washer with the caveat that Washer ‘hasn’t come into full Torah-truth yet’, but that he’s on the ‘right track’.
If our righteousness depends on our performance of Law, whether it be Old Covenant Law or any other law, we’re all sunk. For those in Christ, our righteousness comes from Christ, for just as sin was imputed to us from the First Adam, so righteousness is imputed to those who believe in the Last Adam (Romans chapters 5-8 ROCK!).
What I see those in Law-keeping sects doing is ignoring the reality of the New Creation; we who believe on Christ are different in Christ – the Holy Spirit re-makes us from the inside out. For some the change is drastic and relatively quick; for others the change is a long progression of learning to walk in His Grace. For all it will take a lifetime, as we who are in Christ while in the flesh will always contend to some extent with sin. Regardless of that, we who are in Christ are also the righteousness of God in Christ (2 Cor. 5:21)!
While I see the goals of movements like the HRM and Holiness preachers such as Washer as ‘good’ as far as fleshly morality is concerned, they are not based in the Gospel and bear fruits of the flesh and not of the Spirit. Jesus didn’t come to make Law-breakers into Law-keepers; Jesus came to make spiritually dead people into spiritually alive people. As we walk in His Grace and allow Him to live through us, sinful acts become less and less in our lives. As others have noted, it’s not all about us and self-focus, examining our belly-buttons all the time, but our focus is to be on Christ Jesus, allowing Him to live through us. We are exhorted to examine ourselves to see whether or not we are in the faith, not whether or not we are sinning:
2 Corinthians 13:5-10
5 >>> Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith;<<>> the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.<< Right thinking —-> Right Behavior
Romans 12:1-2
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, >>> but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.<<<
After several years of observing and contending with those in Law-centered/behavior-centered streams of thought, it is evident that right behavior for right behavior's sake, establishing one's own righteousness, leads to fruits of the flesh: self-righteousness, arrogance, pride, etc. If one is abiding in Christ, bearing the Fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control), out of those things FLOW right behavior! God's Grace really is the mose amazing thing!
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [Grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
LikeLike
Paul,
I agree with you. The logic is simple. If you are still a sinner (a function of sin under the law) then sanctification must be meaningless if it is of you. Any good works MUST be God’s and God’s alone. In other words: progressive justification. Worse, really, if you are still a sinner, then you could not have been saved. Christ’s blood was useless to you. Under Christ we can NOT be declared a function of sin any more. No sin can condemn us because no sin can define us.
LikeLike
Has he ever read Genesis? God created man, and man was good. Man himself IS good. He sins as a function of the Law of good and evil, but his physical root is good. That is why he can be redeemed. That is why he is not totally depraved.
LikeLike
Man WAS good, not man IS good. Two entirely very different teachings. The former was true before the fall. the latter is no longer true since. It only took one chapter later to change that reality.
Is this not believed here?
LikeLike
No Matt, that’s not believed here. We believe that the new birth not only declares us righteous positionally, but also makes us righteous. We reject Paul Washer’s heretical total depravity of the saints. Of course, the Reformed reply is, “So, you’re righteous? Did you sin today?” And of course, this shows clearly that they believe Christians are still under the law and that law is the standard for justification which turns the book of Romans completely upside down. The idea that Christians are not righteous fits with Paul’s definition of the lost in Romans: Under law = enslaved to sin. Moreover, as stated in the video, this contradicts Romans 15:14.
LikeLike
Man WAS good and no longer IS good since the fall. It only took one chapter later to bear this out.
Is this not believed here?
LikeLike
Paul Washer teaches imputed righteousness, and he states that many times on the videos of his sermons. He also clearly teaches grace by faith, and that nothing saves you except for the blood of Christ. He also believes in once saved always saved, it’s just that many professing to be Christians never were really saved to begin with. He believes that to keep from sinning that we need to constantly keep out eyes on Jesus, that the further we turn from Him, the closer to sin we get, thus why he says we need to turn back repeatedly. He doesn’t teach that we need to repeatedly seek salvation. Washer says, ” Not only must we repent, but we must recognize that there is absolutely nothing in us that can save us. As the hymn writer said, ‘My hands I bring, but only to the cross of Christ do I cling.'”
He says, “It is a recognition that you have only one hope, and 100% of that hope is found in the person and the work of Jesus Christ, that you know that you cannot save yourself, that if someone were to suggest that you would enter Heaven by some works of righteousness, it would cause you to become nauseous, and you would cry out, ‘No! No! Blasphemy!'”
He continues, “I am saved only for one reason. 2000 years ago, the Son of God bled and died for me. So, salvation comes to us through repentance and through faith in Jesus Christ. Now if you truly believe in Christ you have eternal life. But how do you know that you have truly believed? Even if you have had some sort of conversion experience and you’ve felt some sort of peace with God and so many emotions, how do you really know that it is real? Well, one of the ways that you know it’s real is that it will continue. It’s not that necessarily that the emotional high will continue, but what will continue is you will continue to grow i grace. You will continue to deepen in your repentance, your reliance on Jesus. You will continue to continue to deepen your faith little by little you will be transformed more and more into the image of Jesus Christ. Well, you say, ‘Brother Paul, does a real Christian sin?’ Yes, sadly enough, yes. ‘Can a real Christian fall into sin?’ Yes. But here is the difference. A real Christian (he uses Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?) cannot live in a continuous state of carnality, a continuous immaturity, because the Bible says that He who began a good work in you shall finish it.”
Washer goes on, “The Bible talks of in in Hebrews 12 that one of the greatest signs of true conversion is that God will watch over you with loving parenteral care and He will even discipline you, chastise you when you turn off the path. Not because His attitude toward you has changed, but because He loves you and desires your whole lineage. You see, when you became a Christian, you became part of God’s providence, and He Who began a good work will finish it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that God is just, that man is radically depraved and worthy of all condemnation, that in order to forgive men, God’s justice had to be satisfied. And that was done on the cross where Christ stood in the place of His people, bore their sin and was crushed under the full weight of God’s wrath against them. On dying, he paid the price in full, He is risen from the dead, and now all men everywhere may be saved, through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.”
He states that he absolutely is not teaching a works salvation, that because we are saved through Christ, we should wish to continue the work of God, which naturally leads to a greater holiness in us when we walk in the steps of Christ. Apparently some here haven’t heard much of Washer’s preaching.
LikeLike
Suzy,
Everything you cite above is in context of Washer’s belief that justification and sanctification are the same thing. He absolutely does believe that we keep ourselves saved through the process of “mortification and vivification.” While constantly pontificating about easy-believeism, he himself is in danger of being condemned for teaching a false gospel.
LikeLike
Suzy I think you hit the nail on the head so far as explaining Paul Washer’s theology. From what I heard him say Paul makes a clear distinction between justification and sanctification. They go hand in hand but they are not the same. The evidence that a person has been justified is that he or she will show evidence for their sanctification. They hate sin and they delight to do the will of God. This is not salvation by works as some of Paul Washer’s critics erroneously assert. Salvation is by grace through faith. Total depravity is Biblical. In fact all the points of TULIP are verified by holy scripture.
LikeLike
Carlton,
I am going to call you out on your intellectual dishonesty. You make no point in your post, you only restate canned orthodoxy. Tell me what the Reformed doctrine of the vital union is and how mortification and vivification relates to it.
LikeLike