First of all, you don’t have a clue what my doctrine is. I don’t really believe any of what you have supposed. Being “pure” is exactly about having no mixture of sin or error. Pure means without mixture. I didn’t say purity isn’t the goal. In fact, I said exactly the opposite in a post that didn’t get posted. My only meaning, and you are wrong to read anything else into it, is that pure churches don’t exist any more than sinless people exist. It is not that I expect people to sin against each other; that is just reality.
“First of all, you don’t have a clue what my doctrine is. I don’t really believe any of what you have supposed. Being “pure” is exactly about having no mixture of sin or error. Pure means without mixture. I didn’t say purity isn’t the goal. In fact, I said exactly the opposite in a post that didn’t get posted. My only meaning, and you are wrong to read anything else into it, is that pure churches don’t exist any more than sinless people exist. It is not that I expect people to sin against each other; that is just reality.”
If there can be “pure” people then there can be pure churches. Blessed are the pure in heart. Would you agree that people should not willfully sin when they are saved?
Are you suggesting that Jesus meant pure as in sinelss perfection when he said ‘blessed are the pure in heart’? Or when Paul talked about a pure bride? How about we go for “blameless” since you have a problem with purity.
We need to teach the Word so we can “change reality” for many “Christians” who expect sinning from believers.
I have a few words. I know it’s hopeless. But, here goes.
The “trusting in doing what Christ says” is a legitimate expression of trust and honor toward Christ who sets the requirements for salvation. Christ is the one who gives salvation according to His promise. I heard a discussion where college students concluded that “good people go to heaven.” Now, it is true that Christ said that those who have done good will rise to the resurrection of life (Jn 5:28). However, in the same passage He set the requirements of hearing His words and believing. These requirements should be viewed as a unit, not isolated. According to Jesus we must believe, confess, be baptized and we will be saved. It’s Bible language. This is why James, in chapter 2, says that faith without deeds does not save. He says don’t merely listen, “Do what it says.” Again, the faith of “Lord, Lord” should be one with “doing the will of my Father in heaven” or it does not fulfill the requirements set by Christ for entering the Kingdom of Heaven. We “trust in doing what Christ says” because He is faithful to His promises and His word leads to eternal life. What has He promised? Paul says, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (Rom 2:6-7).”
In regard to the gospel, we need to be thinking along these same lines. The gospel is not only about hearing and trusting, it’s something to be obeyed. To not obey the gospel shows a distrust and dishonor toward Christ from whom came the command to “Repent and believe the gospel (Mk 1:15).” To not obey is to trample the Son of God under foot and it’s making God the Father, who testified about His Son, to be a liar. The offer of forgiveness is contingent upon things like: “forgive and you will be forgiven,” acknowledging and confessing sin, etc. and so Christ says – “if they repent forgive them.” Peter asked: “what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God (1PE 4:17)?” The answer isn’t pretty. So Peter says we should “Commit ourselves to the faithful Creater and continue to do good.”
All that being said, this does not mean that “Trusting in Christ alone for salvation” is a false statement. Nor is this statement false: “The cross merited Justification for us. Apart from the cross there is no ladder by which we may get to heaven.” It all has to be taken in proper context. Salvation is a free gift of God and He gives that gift to whomever He chooses. The Bible tells us that God chooses and promises to give it to the elect who love and obey Him.
The Way/The New Life of Christianity is not about a pretended death devoid of responsibilities. The necessity of good works must be maintained against the Antinomians.
Does justification before God depend on Christ’s substitutionary work alone or does his redeeming work on the cross provide a ladder for us to climb by which we may get to heaven? Is it his work alone, or is it his work plus our obedience to him?
paulspassingthoughts said, on October 7, 2011 at 6:26 PM
Nether. JUSTIFICATION, I REPEAT, JUSTIFICATION IS NOT EVEN ON THE CHRISTIAN RADAR SCREEN!!!! WE ARE GUARANTEED GLORIFICATION AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR DOWN PAYMENT. WE NOW GO TO WORK TO BE SET APART AND TO LOVE HIM–PUTTING OFF THE OLD AND PUTTING ON THE NEW. YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT JUSTIFICATION–WE DON’T CARE ABOUT JUSTIFICATION EXCEPT WE PLEAD WITH OTHERS TO BE “RECONCILED TO GOD.” WE DON’T NEED RECONCILIATION–LOST PEOPLE DO.
As you know, the word used for “pure” is the word clean. Of course, we need to be clean and our churches need to be clean. “Pure” carries the meaning of “without mixture” of error or sin. Before we see God’s face (anthropomorphically speaking) we will be both clean and pure, but at that point, we will be fully sanctified. The same thing is true of the pure bride. The goal is always to be pure. I try to keep my clothes clean every time I go someplace, but they never seem to be spotless when I arrive home. That doesn’t mean I go and jump into and roll around in a mud puddle since I can’t seem to be spotless anyway. It simply means I am like a man in a white suit trying to make his way through a coal mine without getting dirty. Stuff happens.
Is the basis of justification the substitutionary work of Christ alone, or does his work provide a ladder by which me may get to heaven. Will we be justified by his obedience alone, or is our obedience necessary also for justification before God?
paulspassingthoughts said, on October 7, 2011 at 6:18 PM
Anon,
John said we are “righteous even as we are righteous.” Declared righteous, born again, and demonstrating righteousness because of the treasure of His seed that we have in these earthen vessels. We are righteous period–the spirit is willing but we are in bodies of flesh. But we long for the day when we can serve out Lord unhindered. Robert Brinsmead had it wrong. The law does not have to be kept perfectly by us while in these earthen vessels to keep the declaration by God valid. In regard to the law, we are now dealt with as sons and disciplined as such when needed. Christians obey the law as a way to love God–not to keep our justification. To teach that the law still applies to us for justification, and Christ therefore has to keep the law for us to maintain our justification is right out of SDA Investigative Judgement theology which the Forum based COG on.
Righteousness is a legal status not an internal condition. Holiness is an internal condition. Try to keep those two straight. I have no idea what you are going on about in the rest of that quote. Frankly, I don’t give a rip what Brinsmead wrote. Of course the law doesn’t have to be kept perfectly by us. It has been kept perfectly for us by Christ. That is why we are righteous. We seek holiness because we are righteous.
Paul's Passing Thoughts 
Lydia,
First of all, you don’t have a clue what my doctrine is. I don’t really believe any of what you have supposed. Being “pure” is exactly about having no mixture of sin or error. Pure means without mixture. I didn’t say purity isn’t the goal. In fact, I said exactly the opposite in a post that didn’t get posted. My only meaning, and you are wrong to read anything else into it, is that pure churches don’t exist any more than sinless people exist. It is not that I expect people to sin against each other; that is just reality.
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So Paul, you are saying you don’t want to correct Bill’s statement re: the evangelical view of justification and the Roman Catholic view?
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Well, let me think about that a minute: No.
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“First of all, you don’t have a clue what my doctrine is. I don’t really believe any of what you have supposed. Being “pure” is exactly about having no mixture of sin or error. Pure means without mixture. I didn’t say purity isn’t the goal. In fact, I said exactly the opposite in a post that didn’t get posted. My only meaning, and you are wrong to read anything else into it, is that pure churches don’t exist any more than sinless people exist. It is not that I expect people to sin against each other; that is just reality.”
If there can be “pure” people then there can be pure churches. Blessed are the pure in heart. Would you agree that people should not willfully sin when they are saved?
Are you suggesting that Jesus meant pure as in sinelss perfection when he said ‘blessed are the pure in heart’? Or when Paul talked about a pure bride? How about we go for “blameless” since you have a problem with purity.
We need to teach the Word so we can “change reality” for many “Christians” who expect sinning from believers.
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Thank-you for finally answering my question.
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Accuser,
I have a few words. I know it’s hopeless. But, here goes.
The “trusting in doing what Christ says” is a legitimate expression of trust and honor toward Christ who sets the requirements for salvation. Christ is the one who gives salvation according to His promise. I heard a discussion where college students concluded that “good people go to heaven.” Now, it is true that Christ said that those who have done good will rise to the resurrection of life (Jn 5:28). However, in the same passage He set the requirements of hearing His words and believing. These requirements should be viewed as a unit, not isolated. According to Jesus we must believe, confess, be baptized and we will be saved. It’s Bible language. This is why James, in chapter 2, says that faith without deeds does not save. He says don’t merely listen, “Do what it says.” Again, the faith of “Lord, Lord” should be one with “doing the will of my Father in heaven” or it does not fulfill the requirements set by Christ for entering the Kingdom of Heaven. We “trust in doing what Christ says” because He is faithful to His promises and His word leads to eternal life. What has He promised? Paul says, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (Rom 2:6-7).”
In regard to the gospel, we need to be thinking along these same lines. The gospel is not only about hearing and trusting, it’s something to be obeyed. To not obey the gospel shows a distrust and dishonor toward Christ from whom came the command to “Repent and believe the gospel (Mk 1:15).” To not obey is to trample the Son of God under foot and it’s making God the Father, who testified about His Son, to be a liar. The offer of forgiveness is contingent upon things like: “forgive and you will be forgiven,” acknowledging and confessing sin, etc. and so Christ says – “if they repent forgive them.” Peter asked: “what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God (1PE 4:17)?” The answer isn’t pretty. So Peter says we should “Commit ourselves to the faithful Creater and continue to do good.”
All that being said, this does not mean that “Trusting in Christ alone for salvation” is a false statement. Nor is this statement false: “The cross merited Justification for us. Apart from the cross there is no ladder by which we may get to heaven.” It all has to be taken in proper context. Salvation is a free gift of God and He gives that gift to whomever He chooses. The Bible tells us that God chooses and promises to give it to the elect who love and obey Him.
The Way/The New Life of Christianity is not about a pretended death devoid of responsibilities. The necessity of good works must be maintained against the Antinomians.
Arkansas Bill
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Bill,
Does justification before God depend on Christ’s substitutionary work alone or does his redeeming work on the cross provide a ladder for us to climb by which we may get to heaven? Is it his work alone, or is it his work plus our obedience to him?
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Nether. JUSTIFICATION, I REPEAT, JUSTIFICATION IS NOT EVEN ON THE CHRISTIAN RADAR SCREEN!!!! WE ARE GUARANTEED GLORIFICATION AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR DOWN PAYMENT. WE NOW GO TO WORK TO BE SET APART AND TO LOVE HIM–PUTTING OFF THE OLD AND PUTTING ON THE NEW. YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT JUSTIFICATION–WE DON’T CARE ABOUT JUSTIFICATION EXCEPT WE PLEAD WITH OTHERS TO BE “RECONCILED TO GOD.” WE DON’T NEED RECONCILIATION–LOST PEOPLE DO.
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Lydia,
As you know, the word used for “pure” is the word clean. Of course, we need to be clean and our churches need to be clean. “Pure” carries the meaning of “without mixture” of error or sin. Before we see God’s face (anthropomorphically speaking) we will be both clean and pure, but at that point, we will be fully sanctified. The same thing is true of the pure bride. The goal is always to be pure. I try to keep my clothes clean every time I go someplace, but they never seem to be spotless when I arrive home. That doesn’t mean I go and jump into and roll around in a mud puddle since I can’t seem to be spotless anyway. It simply means I am like a man in a white suit trying to make his way through a coal mine without getting dirty. Stuff happens.
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Bill,
Is the basis of justification the substitutionary work of Christ alone, or does his work provide a ladder by which me may get to heaven. Will we be justified by his obedience alone, or is our obedience necessary also for justification before God?
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Lydia,
The point is, there aren’t pure people. That is what we mean when we say we aren’t sinlessly perfect.
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Anon,
John said we are “righteous even as we are righteous.” Declared righteous, born again, and demonstrating righteousness because of the treasure of His seed that we have in these earthen vessels. We are righteous period–the spirit is willing but we are in bodies of flesh. But we long for the day when we can serve out Lord unhindered. Robert Brinsmead had it wrong. The law does not have to be kept perfectly by us while in these earthen vessels to keep the declaration by God valid. In regard to the law, we are now dealt with as sons and disciplined as such when needed. Christians obey the law as a way to love God–not to keep our justification. To teach that the law still applies to us for justification, and Christ therefore has to keep the law for us to maintain our justification is right out of SDA Investigative Judgement theology which the Forum based COG on.
LikeLike
Righteousness is a legal status not an internal condition. Holiness is an internal condition. Try to keep those two straight. I have no idea what you are going on about in the rest of that quote. Frankly, I don’t give a rip what Brinsmead wrote. Of course the law doesn’t have to be kept perfectly by us. It has been kept perfectly for us by Christ. That is why we are righteous. We seek holiness because we are righteous.
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