New Calvinism’s Beef With Teaching Children to Ask Jesus Into Our Heart and Voddie Baucham’s Reformed View of Children
Now look, I believe children are born sinful, and I also believe children not properly reared can grow up to be monsters, but we need to also remember that every human being is born with the works/law of God written on their hearts and their consciences either excusing or accusing them. That’s why I don’t go for this total depravity stuff along with the dirty little secret that this also supposedly applies to believers. Man is by nature sinful, but if you go through life looking at the unregenerate as nothing more than barely a step above the animal world, they will know that and it will create issues in your life to say the least.
New Calvinism will die a social death. Authentic Calvinism always does because five things finally come home to roost:
1. Folks finally take a stand against the tyranny it produces.
2. Folks finally catch on to the fact that authentic Reformed theology is Gnosticism (Neo-Platonism) dressed up in Bible verses.
3. Folks grow weary of its pessimistic mindset/outlook on life that came from Plato and Augustine.
4. Folks get bored with the constant recycling of Christology as if that is the only subject in the Bible (Susan and I are hearing this a lot lately).
5. As a result of 1-4, people’s lives start going to hell in a hand basket. Authentic Calvinism always ends up yielding very bad results as it did in Geneva and Salem MA.
But for the first time since the conception of Reformed theology, there has never been a resurgence of it that has been this well systematized and funded (ie, New Calvinism). And, there has never been a time when American parishioners were dumbed down like they are in our day; so, number 2 is going to take a while. In other words, the former resurgent movements haven’t left enough damage for people to remember, and dots usually aren’t connected (ie, the Salem witch trials were an identical event to what took place in Geneva under Calvin’s reign of terror). So, every hundred years or so it makes a comeback and then dies out again. The goal is to limit the carnage and educate to prevent another resurgence.
Now back to my original point about children. New Calvinists get this Reformed, abysmal view of man from Plato and Augustine. And the following quote by New Calvinist Voddie Baucham depicted in the illustration should be all that needs to be said.
Keep New Calvinists away from our children.
That might just be typical of calvinist’s children. They are angry that God might not love them enough to elect them to salvation. No wonder Jesus wept.
It is amazing how far from the scriptures these people get. Jesus uses a child as the standard as to how to come into the kingdom and says unless you are like one of these little ones you will not be able to enter. So with Voddie’s assessment of babies and Jesus’ requirement that you must like a child then the only people who will be able to enter the kingdom of God would those who are willing to kill their parents as they sleep.
For crying out loud, can’t this ( Calvinism) just die…
We are definitely witnessing a time where our young people are being abused and neglected in large numbers- whether in the church or the secular world. Once you tell the young ones that it is hopeless, you can gain control over their very beings. They grow up feeling like there is no one to turn except the dictators in charge.
I do find it interesting that in a day when Arminian theology is being accepted by more Christians than ever that it’s also the day when more parents are murdered by their children than ever. Coincidence, I know.
Louis, What you call Arminianism has always been, and remains an extreme minority. Arminianism isn’t everything NOT Calvin. Like most Calvinists, you are clueless in regard to church history other than what “spiritually enlightened” despots want you to know. Calvinism Light that lives on when authentic Calvinism dies out every 100 years or so considers election to be a paradox/mystery that somehow weaves the sovereignty of God with free will and rejects Augustinian fatalistic determinism. What isn’t a coincidence is that the same exact behavior played out in colonial Calvinism was also played out in Calvin’s Geneva; ie, the Salem witch trials among many other examples.
Authentic Calvinism dies out for the following 5 reasons:
1. It’s pessimistic, hopeless message. 2. It’s ambiguity towards the law starts yielding bad results in real life. 3. People tire of the continual recycling of 365 different versions of the gospel. 4. It’s spiritual tyranny and compounding spiritual abuse begins to peak. 5. Christians eventually discover that authentic Reformation doctrine is false; ie, progressive justification.
Furthermore, parent killers are mentioned by the Apostle Paul in the book of Ephesians and you have no proof that it is any more prevalent today than it was in the first century. Moreover, Christ said that in the last days people would be cold hearted BECAUSE of “anomia.” So, if anything leads to that kind of cold heartedness, it is Calvin’s version of anomia: Jesus obeys the law for us and he lived a perfect life of obedience so that his obedience could be imputed to us in sanctification.
paul
> —–Original Message—– >
You disagree with the doctrine of imputed righteousness? How then is man made righteous?
Imputation is not progressive thou confused Calvinist.
> —–Original Message—– >
Arminianism is “salvation maintained by works” theology. No where here is that stated. As Paul States the Law brings us to KNOWLEDGE of our sin. After Salvation the Law only reveals what we could not do and always points to the One who fulfilled the Law and its deathly sentence. It brings us to…..drum roll here…….that we are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT. Wow…such a thought. This is a concept that is so lost with Calvinism- yes, Christ lives inside of us – Permanently- for all eternity. We, as Christians, must then rely on the Holy Spirit for sanctification (not the confusion of progressive justification)- but, hey guess what? We can quench the Holy Spirit as well; we can, by our own choice, stop living the fruit- of-the Spirit life and go back to our sinful flesh. By our choice- it is our responsibility to live or not live righteously. If we do not live righteously we lose rewards in eternity and the peace of God/blessings of the fruits of the Spirit in this life; we do not lose our Salvation however.
I know that is too simplistic for the many theological minded, but I do love the Bibles simplicity and clear understanding of spiritual things – don’t you?
Also something to point out here: if anything look at the life of Christ and who he hung out with. They all had theologies in fishery, tax collecting, and homemaking. Paul and his theological training was brought down the lowest- he thought in his mind he was the most religious with all his knowledge if the Law. This is why Paul was humbled and knew his standing before the Lord the most after his conversion. “Paul, Paul why arduous persecuting me?”
Calvinist, Calvinist why are you persecuting me with all the confusing terminologies and religious jargon that confuses the simplicity of the gospel and Salvation? Why are you persecuting me with your oppressive demands of progressive justification upon my people? Why do you suppress the rightful and individual position/relationship of the Holy Spirit in each and every believer and supercede it by placing elders and pastors a “Reformed Popes” not loving and humble shepherds?
Excuse me “Paul, Paul why are you persecuting me?”
My spell check goes crazy on me sometimes.
Right, and I always knew eschatology was important, but I didn’t know why. 2 resurrections and 2 judgements (one for rewards–not to judge works) go with the gospel that separates just and sanct. The Reformed view necessarily calls for one of both because sanct and just are fused.
> —–Original Message—– >
Its just “connect the dots” isn’t Paul? Makes you walk away in pure wonder of how brilliant our God is ! What freedom there is in Christ!
When one relinquishes the Salvation by works or progressive justification thinking, one then is free to serve Christ. We do not have the burden of trying to achieve that status or confirmation of “Am I sure?” or “Did I do enough?” We then can focus “How can I serve Him in my Christian walk today and for eternity?” We end up being “Christ focused” instead of “Me focused”. I was constantly told I was depraved and a sinner at the church I use to go to. I was plagued with internal doubt about my salvation for 2 years. Instead of being “focused on Christ” it was focused on our depravity. After I left, doubts subsided. I was so focused on my justified standing with the Lord and forgetting about my sanctified standing with the Lord. The Lord wants us to live His Word not be stuck in the time warp of faulty doctrines of whatever fuses salvation with works.
Exactly. Staying at the foot of the cross to maintain our salvation is a serious issue. At what point are we, and here it is, their word’s not mine: “making sanctification the ground of our justification.” They get a huge pass on this because people assume they are talking about the Jesus+something else crowd to maintain justification. But they aren’t, they are talking about Christ + Calvin’s secret formula for not making sanctification the ground of our justification because of things we do in sanctification, like obeying the law. If we don’t obey the law in sanctification (because, and here it is: “Christ is our sanctification” and “Christ for [as in obeying the law FOR] us”), Christ will be the ground for our justification in the final judgement. The first huge red flag is the belief that Christian will ever stand in a judgement that determines justification rather than sanctification rewards. So, when you were at that Reformed church, they didn’t teach much eschatology did they? Nope, because it causes huge problems with their theology. > —–Original Message—– >
“do find it interesting that in a day when Arminian theology is being accepted by more Christians than ever that it’s also the day when more parents are murdered by their children than ever. Coincidence, I know.”
First of all I am neither Arminian or Calvinist (guys they love to make it only 2 categories. Don’t let them unless you really ARE Arminian)
And secondly, how do you know the above is true? I mean, did you research every single reported incident since when? And how did you research it? How far back can on research something like this?
I find your assertion ironic since we know a child was put to death during Calvin’s reign in Geneva for hitting his parents.
Paul, please explain in layman’s terms how calvinism views justification and sanctification. I am trying to understand this. Does this have anything to do with the saint’s persevering?
Christian,
Well, my lengthy reply just somehow got wiped out because I must have hit a wrong key. I will revisit this in the morning. Maybe it will be a better.
Christian,
Part one to my answer is posted.
Christian, I am a Calvinist in the soteriological sense of the word. I would not accept everything Reformed people believe or everything those in the reformed tradition have done. Still, I can answer your question about what Calvinist believe about justification and sanctification. We believe justification is a judicial act of God in which he declares believers righteous in his sight based on the imputed righteousness of Christ, i.e., the righteousness of Christ that God puts to our account, though we have absolutely no righteousness of our own. This righteousness is received by faith alone and apart from works of obedience to the Law.
Sanctification results from God’s work in the believer by which he enables him to desire to please God and gives him the ability to do so. In the work of sanctification, God produces a righteousness in the believer that is his own.
Though in justification the believer is passive, in sanctification he becomes active in obeying Christ’s commandments.
The believer perseveres in faith and the resultant obedience because the Spirit of God perseveres in producing the desire and the ability to please God.
trust4himonly,
Can you give me an example of a Calvinist who confuses justification and sanctification? I have been a Calvinist for 45 years and have read hundreds of Calvinists. So far, I have not found one who confuses justification and sanctification.
The wicked are estranged from the womb and go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies Psa. 58
Paul,
What do you see as “not Calvinism” that is not Arminianism [apart from Pelagianism of course, which is even worse]?
trust4himonly
You wrote:
“. . .that we are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT. Wow…such a thought. This is a concept that is so lost with Calvinism- yes, Christ lives inside of us – Permanently- for all eternity.” How do you think this concept is lost with Calvinism? Have you ever really read something a Calvinist wrote? I happen to be a Calvinist who believes we are enabled to obey God because the Spirit lives in us. Perhaps, if the Spirit is truly living in you, he would keep you from making false accusations against your brethren in Christ.
Because Randy the well known Calvinists of today and the most heard (Piper, Etc..) continually mix the justification and sanctification in their teachings. I was at a Reformed church for two years and yes, subtly heard the same thing. Every week it was a constant “you are a depraved sinner”. Every week was about coming to the foot of the cross. The pastor was a Masters seminarian quoting from John MacArthur and John Piper. John MacArthur is a Lordship Salvation proponent- meaning you must first make Christ your Lord and fully submit before you become saved- so excuse me, how does an unbeliever do that? I did not hear at all about the Holy Spirit working in the believer only but in the Salvation sense not in the sanctification sense. The Holy Spirit was not considered an active agent in the progressive sanctification process. There was a constant glorification of men such as Piper, Ligon Duncan, Sproul, Chan, MacArthur and do on- these were the men to study (if you could fully grasp their lofty knowledge). They even loved a man named Donald Whitney who basically said in his writings that one must journal as a part of the sanctification process; one must be in silence as a sanctifying tool; worship (in the sense of a corporate body) was consider a sanctifying tool. No where did I hear the Holy Spirit being the one doing the work- no we needed to do outside acts to produce this change. I was plagued with doubt for two years about my salvation and whether I was really a believer or not. Now let me ask you this- if these are the results (and you hear them ALL over the blogosphere) of Calvinism, just as they would be with any SYSTEM of man, would you not have to agree that something is a little off here? I thought that knowing Christ would produce joy and assurance, not confusion and despair; not doubt and an unknowing of the truth. Would it not be a “yoke that is easy, and a burden that is light”? All I see from these famous men when they are questioned is arrogance and a desire to keep the machine running at all costs. I don’t see a sense of being humble ot a sense of love for those confused. It is a “my way or the highway” mentality. No thank you sir.
Randy, in all Christian love, maybe just start looking at the holes in this faulty doctrine and don’t be so quick to judge the ones who have been hurt by the doctrines of men. Maybe it is time to get back to the simplicity of the gospel instead confusing theologies that end up disparaging us “common folk”.
One more thing: I was told that Jesus could not be my friend because He was too holy.. that did it for me….I left.
T4H, Lin et al:
Is he gone? is it safe to come back yet?
I think so…….
I do not like debating Calvinists- its like debating someone while riding on a Ferris wheel.
trust4himonly,
It appears do me you are not debating. You have simply assumed I believe things I don’t believe and rejected my views out of hand. Why don’t you ask me if I believe something before you reject the views you think I hold. Calvinism may have little or nothing to do with stuff that is being preached today. Don’t assume that because someone who calls himself a Calvinist says something stupid that Calvinism is ipso facto heresy.
By the way, I am still waiting for someone to tell me where any verse in the NT tells any sinner, child or otherwise to “let Jesus come into their heart.”
trust4himonly.
I am also still waiting for you to give me a citation from a Calvinist who confuses justification and sanctification. Simply to state that God sanctifies all whom he justifies is not to confuse or conflate those two gracious works of God. To say that God both created and governs his universe does not confuse or conflate God’s creative and governmental activity,
One quote: “A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows all of us are partly unbelievers.” John Calvin
Agree with the perfect faith part, but am I then partly an unbeliever? What does partly an unbeliever mean? Don’t you think this would confuse? Is this not where this quote is couched in some truth but then the narrative around it is false?
Don’t worry I will bring more- takes time though I am a homeschool mom with 3 kids.
John MacArthur : “Eternal security is a great spiritual truth, but it should never be permitted merely as a matter of being once saved, always saved–with no regard for what you believe or do. The writer of Hebrews 12:14 States frankly that only those who CONTINUE holy lives will enter the Lords presence.”
So which is it John? Eternal security or not. Again state truth then couch it with untruths. Classic justification and sanctification fused. So does that mean that if I went down the wrong road as a Christian and started partying I lost it or is it that I never had it to begin with? Well then how could one distinguish who is lost or not- no one knows the heart except God right? What about the pastor who is living a life of pride and arrogancy- is that not then unholy? How much holy is needed to please God to keep us secure?
Book: Kingdom Living Here and Now pg 150
The “let Jesus come into your heart” is just a phrase for I want Jesus/ I believe in Jesus, Randy. Do you not think that if an individual child or not wants Jesus He would not hear their call? Or do we need a complete understanding of our total depravity, limited atonement, imputed righteousness to truly get salvation? Of course there are those who did not truly believe but that is between them and God. Why are we so worried about it? Since a Calvinist so believes in predestination it would not matter anyway since that individual that refused Christ was not part of the elect anyway. We can only do our part in giving the gospel and letting that process work out between God and His creation.
I shudder to think what the poor adulterous woman would have had to theologically understand if the Calvinist was in charge. Jesus knew what was in her heart and then redeemed her. What about the thief at the cross? Jesus asked Peter to follow – he got up and followed. There was not this discussion about the 5 points TULIP. Simple faith does require complexity.